Issue with Proximity Sensor during calls - Continued.

Goflying wrote:
Give it a rest mbassoc - you're repeating yourself ad regurgitum.

Do you not realise that continuing to post on thus thread is not fixing the problem with your phone? It's not helping the others on the thread who do have the same problem either. Unless you mean to give them comfort that they are not alone.

But posting videos of a genuine fault occuring on the phone and/or putting up a website and gathering technical data and expert opinion and then lobbying press will get something done. At the very least, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to get credible and take action to further your cause.

Sitting on the threat whining about things isn't getting anyone anywhere. The only purpose it serves is give assurance to newbies that it's a reported issue.

Now, some of the more intelligent posters have visited the thread, posted a bit, and then made their decision to return their phones and not get embroiled in an issue that is either of no significance or no real interest to the media or Apple Corporate.

Some people have also made their decision to keep their phones on the basis that if they fix it they fix it, and if they don't, they can live with it until the next model comes along.

But some, like yourself, continue to whine and whing and I'm sure if you do have a f"ched up phone it must be of great comfort to you that other people have the saem issue. But really, what are you doing to help others with the fault, or progress yours or their interests?

At least I can offer practical advice on how to either progress the issue and build evidence of a flaw. And I can offer advice on not taking too much notice of Apple's dangled carrots and provide objectrive criticism of reported data being supplied by 'beta testers' who are so trustworthy that they cannot even maintain the agreement they signed with Apple (if indeed they are telling the truth).

Incidentally, if this were purely a software issue, would not the jailbraeaking fraternity have explored the issue by now? The iOS4.1 betas are all openly available for them to take appart and disassemble. Why absolutely no interest from that side of the indiustry? They prode themselves on being one step ahead of the ball.

Let's look at your case of brickies....
If brickies had an issue with say safety on a site, or lack of pay, or not enough bogs on a site, I'd presume they's scream and shout and refuse to do any work until things were safe, they were paid enough and they had enough bogs to **** in. By your analogy, they would actually take action to solve the problem, or take action top force someone else to solve the problem.

By only posting on the thread over and over again, you are doing neither. Action needs to be concerted, clearly focused and very public. If you decide to do things that can be ignored by Apple, you will be ignored by Apple.

Have you written to head office yet and sent it registered mail?
Was your letter clear and concise, and did it contain proof?
Did you copy that letter to your lawyer and to the local news agency?

Or are you just whinging for the sake of wanting to feel p!ssed off?

Asa asa wrote:
I said proof that there is NO problem, coz I believe that there are problems.

Okay.
You seem to have had a problem with english again.
I'm cutting you some slack because you are a bit dimmer than the other poster's here.

mbassoc2003 wrote:
@Pberk - The issue will only reach 'critical mass' when the people who have the problem decide +en mass+ that they actually want to take responsibility for their situaltions and do something about it. Companies do not act because people whinge on a message board. But companies act when they are in the media spotlight and there is actual evidence in the field of the flaw that makes for good reporting. There is none of this because those who do have a problem won't prove it (therefor it's not an issue that bothers them enough to actually put together proof), or the issue is so intermittent that it cannot be recreated on a handset with the flaw at will. Eitherway, with no proof that can be corroberated, there will be no media interest and no 'critical mass'. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, this will only ever be a minor glitch that will be swept up somewhere along the line, or become redundant as technology moves along. Apple may have created the situation, but they have offered refunds. The fact that this is a non-issue is the fault of those who have the problem not doing enough to further their cause.

You characterization of "companies" is a sweeping generalization. Apple is already acting on the issue (by their own statement of 7/16 as well as by the numerous reports about the PS from developers who have been testing the betas). So whether its major or minor, it's already on their radar.

Whether they consider the issue widespread enough to have to address it on a urgent basis and as a stand-alone problem (and whether they CAN address it as a stand-alone problem) is another issue altogether.

I don't think it's about "proving a flaw" - complaints are enough proof that something is going on that has made some users unhappy with their product- even if it's working perfectly as designed to work, there are users unhappy with the way they conceived it...

I also think this is a difficult issue - I know most people tend to think of it as a hardware issue (because the sensor itself is a piece of hardware) and there may well be some defective sensors in some people's phones (probably in the same proportion as other manufacturing defects that have been uncovered with some people's microphones, screens, cameras, etc.) But the fact that there are also many reports of the problem clearing up with restores and installs suggest that software glitches are causing the symptoms as well. In this regard, you have to think of it as the program driving the proximity sensor crashing. Just as some apps will crash on some people's phones and not others (whether because of corrupt installs or interactions or whatever), here you have the proximity sensor program crashing.

It's not something you can diagnose from a bunch of videos (as I think you've pointed out well enough). There is just too much user variability in those videos ... in many cases you can't see where the speaker is in relation to the person's ear or the phone is being moved around, etc. etc. And, we have no way of knowing what else those folks have on their phones, if they're jailbroken or are running multiple location services apps, or have huge databases open which aren't releasing memory, etc., or even if some are momentarily losing their network connections due to some interference (causing the PS program to think that the call has ended)...

Apple certainly has captured enough of the phones with reported problems to at least know in which category of problem the PS issue falls. We don't.

Based on the posting here that there will now be a red diode indicating where the sensor is, my (unsubstantiated) gut feeling is that Apple must think that at least a portion, if not the lion's share, of the problems are caused by people not placing the speaker directly over their ears and they are now providing a "visual cue" that will make this more intuitive. (After I posted the experience with my friend's iphone yesterday - where his residual problems were definitely caused by the fact that he was moving the speaker off his ear - there were a number of posts in various threads saying that people solved their PS issues by placing the speaker over their ears. But you can never account for people... I would think that if it's common knowledge that cell phone proximity sensors are designed to work when you place the speaker on your ear, that when someone's PS didn't work the first thing they would look at was whether the speaker was on their ear.... but surprisingly, that doesn't even occur to some folks until after someone points it out to them...)

But, unlike you, I don't fault "those who have the problem not doing enough to further their cause." Apple has enough customer experience to know how many people don't call Applecare, show up at a genius bar, send feedback or post for every person who does. All companies (and politicians) develop this kind of statistical information and understand what each interaction represents.
Apple is the only one who has any real idea of how widespread this issue is - the rest of us are just making it up as we go along....

@Pberk - Visual cue? Do you mean a future update is actaully going to light the diode? I wouldn't have thought people would need much more of a visual clue than a hole in the phone, but I'm also guessing the majority of people don't have this issue because they get that bit. Speaker to ear. End of problem.

The real problem is that business users operate phones differently from the mass market social crowds. Business users tend to operate their phones in a way that requires their hands to be free to take notes at times, or they answer with whichever hand is free and then swap ears at a convelient time in a conversation. The issue is that business users are finding that the iPhone is no longer as business friendly as previous models were, and many cannot alter their usage method for their phones and do not see why they should have to, even if they are the insignificant minority. Fortumately, on the whole, they are also the more educated and capable customers, and I'd imagine the reason this isn't a 'big issue' is because those users are resolving their own issues immediately and directly with Apple, and what we're left with on the boeards are the social users who do not fall into the general social demographic, and the business and professionals who are not willing to give up and move on.

That also explains why there is no media interest and no evidence. If the issue affested the mass market media savy youth, there would be a Fuqd Prox Sensor Facebook page and sh!tloads of Twitter, and the press would be all over this. The fact that that hasn't happened yet says a lot about the issue and it's importance and who is actually being affected vs. who is not.

mbassoc2003 wrote:
@Pberk - Visual cue? Do you mean a future update is actaully going to light the diode?

I rather suspect that the diode has been lit all along but its' light output is being increased by 4.1 to the point that it will be just barely visible. In other words 4.1 is giving the sensor more IR reflection to work with. Not so sure that this will not have some, possibly significant inpact on battery life.
The didode is unlikely to be there as a 'clue', it's almost certainly a functional and integral part of the PS.

GermanWarefare seems prety convinced that the PS issue is a hardware based problem and that the potentially upcoming 4.1 release (whenever it happens) will address (his words) most of the PS issues. No word on what it won't address.

The longer this goes, the more it seems that apple are having a really hard time getting a fix sorted. Bear in mind that the ambient light sensor is part of the PS (not that the ambient light sensor works properly either at the moment lol)

I wouldn't have thought people would need much more of a visual clue than a hole in the phone, but I'm also guessing the majority of people don't have this issue because they get that bit. Speaker to ear. End of problem.

So said the blind man 😉

The real problem is that business users operate phones differently from the mass market social crowds. Business users tend to operate their phones in a way that requires their hands to be free to take notes at times, or they answer with whichever hand is free and then swap ears at a convelient time in a conversation. The issue is that business users are finding that the iPhone is no longer as business friendly as previous models were, and many cannot alter their usage method for their phones and do not see why they should have to, even if they are the insignificant minority. Fortumately, on the whole, they are also the more educated and capable customers, and I'd imagine the reason this isn't a 'big issue' is because those users are resolving their own issues immediately and directly with Apple,

Their resolution would be to return IP4's - end of story

and what we're left with on the boeards are the social users who do not fall into the general social demographic, and the business and professionals who are not willing to give up and move on.

Not so - suggest you reread the thread

That also explains why there is no media interest and no evidence. If the issue affested the mass market media savy youth, there would be a Fuqd Prox Sensor Facebook page and sh!tloads of Twitter, and the press would be all over this. The fact that that hasn't happened yet says a lot about the issue and it's importance and who is actually being affected vs. who is not.

What exactly is your concern about who is affected and who is not? You've stated that you are not affected many times. You're acting like one of those rather sad and ghoulish people who gather round the scene of an accident, unable to tear thweir gaze away from the sight of blood. Is this it?

germanwarfare wrote:
Yes that is exactly what I am saying. Come 4.1 there will be nothing left to complain about.....

I have a developers license but I am closer to Media than to being a developer. Of course Apple could remove my developers account and or my posts. But why would they? I have said next to nothing about their Betas, just relating to the proximity sensor. I have posted several times over the course of my experience with the iPhone 4 dating back to June 23rd.

Please lock this thread already. There is nothing more to discuss. This is my final comment on this topic by the way.

(pics have been enhanced so you could see the light)
http://yfrog.com/86img9056ij
http://yfrog.com/7dimg9058j

What's more "surprising"? Empire's sudden disappearance or the continued, bipolar rantings of mbASS?

mbassoc2003 wrote:
@Pberk - Visual cue? Do you mean a future update is actaully going to light the diode? I wouldn't have thought people would need much more of a visual clue than a hole in the phone, but I'm also guessing the majority of people don't have this issue because they get that bit. Speaker to ear. End of problem.

I believe someone posted here with a link to 2 photos showing a "red light" coming from the sensor in beta 3 - that's the "visual cue" I was referring to.... As far as people needing that... well, there's no accounting for people.. but in the science of ergonomics and human standards, you learn that visual cues get internalized pretty quickly once people understand them and then reaction to them becomes somewhat intuitive and automatic... and colored visual cues which stand out from their backgrounds are especially powerful...the body follows the mind without conscious thought...

I am a business user... I am constantly taking notes (usually on my ipad which requires both hands) while on the phone ...that's why I have headphones, a bluetooth earpiece and love speakerphone (and I will say that the speakerphone volume on the IP4 seems much better than on its predecessors).
I think everyone shifts around during long calls. And most people I encounter no longer keep separate phones for business and personal use unless their jobs force them to. So I'm not sure I agree with you that the problems we are hearing about are necessarily one group or another.

As far as media interest goes, once they get burned, they are not likely to come back for more.... so many of them went out on a limb predicting a recall at the 7/16 press conference on the antenna issue after "listening" to all the complainers - and then found out that the actual 14 days return rate was less than half the industry average which made them feel foolish, that they are not about to head out on that limb again. [Reporters really get slammed by editors for bad predictions in print - I know, I've been on both ends of that equation, the slammee and the slammer 😉 ) The media has a herd mentality and no one wants to be the first on shaky ground. Besides they cover "news", not complainers.... a recall from a company like Apple would have been huge news, especially in the financial media (which, by the way was also predicting a 7/16 recall) because all the anaylsts earnings estimates for the year included heavy iphone numbers - an indeterminate number of people having issues with their phones is hardly news these days. [Did you catch much coverage of Samsung's recent announcement acknowledging that the GPS lock doesn't work on their flagship phones and that they were going to work on it???] Too, Apple's numbers came in so huge for the quarter - and are predicted to come in huge again next quarter - that there's no mileage in reporting on the issues unless its going to have some real impact on the company. So the financial media isn't going to touch it, the general press - which is always slow in July - is coming into the active midterm election season and with the economy the way it is, their business reporters will have bigger issues to cover... and no one really cares about the tech press except for people like you and me.... So the media is a non-starter here...

You know, you're really an interesting, intelligent guy to talk to when you're not calling people names and disparaging them - you ought to give that stuff up... people will like having you around!

Goflying wrote:
What exactly is your concern about who is affected and who is not? You've stated that you are not affected many times.

I have not hidden the fact that this is somewhat schadenfuede on my part. That said, I am trying to offer dispassionate and practical advice to those who wish to progress or conclude their issues with their phones. And having been here since the early pages, posters do appear and then slot themselves into one catagory or other. You see people's behaviour paterns repeating themselves.

@Chotty1 - That may well be what he says. But that does not mean he is telling the truth. I only question the post's technical clarity, and why someone who has ostensibly signed a confidentiality agreement with Apple would then be posting in open forum about materials covered under their non-disclosure policy.

The proximity sensor on my iPhone 4 apparently stopped functioning last week - I found out that the cause was the new Otterbox Defender case I purchased - when I removed the Otterbox and put a cheap (i.e. basic side and back protection only) case on the phone, the proximity sensor functioned properly again.

My proximity sensor stopped functioning when I put an Otterbox Defender case on my phone - take it off and the sensor works fine!

Nubz N. wrote:
This thread is a continuation of Issue with Proximity Sensor during calls which was getting too long and causing some browsers to time out. The old thread has been locked and the last post links to this thread.

Thank you.

Apple Discussions Hosts

This thread is now officially longer than the older one, and is now mostly composed of the same 5 or 6 fools arguing amongst each other. Why hasn't it been locked yet? Cuz it's far outlived any useful purpose about 80 pages ago...

@Goflying - I find it easier to tell it like it is and not dress things up. It is deffinately confrontaional and causes the biggest problem with people who have lived sheltered corporate lives where office politics more often than not prevents people speaking directly and getting straight down to business. Of maybe it's just the raw reality of running businesses that means I don't pad things out with fluff and scented paper. But I see your point.

I tell it as it is. I have no bias towards any one point or other. I have no flaw with my phone. I do not deny the problem exists. What I do try to do is point out the falicies and the flaws in people's positions. When you have posters saying they were going to return their phones but now they'll hold out because they think a fix will be here by the end of the month, these people need to be told quickly and directly to wake up and smell the coffee. Many of the posters either do not live in the real hard world of commercial decisions and real life, or they do not believe they are important or powerful enough in of themselves to get something done. And that results in whining and complaints of ineffectual helplessness, and they come across a being pathetic and weak.

At the very least, going at them hammer and tongs and tearing their position apart sparks a fire and gets them enraged; "How dare you speak to me like that!", and next thing you know they're all fired up, shouting the odds and fighting back, and whaddaya know, when they're face to face with the Apple monkeys they're knoking down the platitudes and getting mad at the platitudes and getting something done. Either that or they do their research, think "I'll show that AH who knows best" and they become well read around the subject and they're conributing lucid and factual data to the board. And they also have the information they need to make an educated decision for themselves whether or not they want to stick with the iP4 of cash in their chips.

It might not be the best solution, or the most diplomatic, but it works. And this place would be a lot more boring if we were all the same. Funny - MichaelEmpire and I had a very similar set to over this issue, and we reached very similar understandings.



The Press - Yes they act as a herd. But that is a good thing. It means you only need to move one or two of them in the right direction and the rest will follow. The press are just another tool for those with the will and some conserted effort to manipulate to their own advantage. Everyone has an agenda. Theirs is to make a noice and a name for themselves. Yours is to get your PS sensor issue fixed. The more magnanimous amongst us may want to get an admition of fault or some acknowledgement that the phone is a bad one and here's a free ticket for a replacement when we get the new handset through it's design process and out the door. Whatever - If your agenda is to get the problem fixed, the press is the most powerful tool on the planet to getting that done. Apple have already closed the door on legal avenues because they've given you 30 days to test and evaluate it, and left it up to you if you want to keep it.

bro germanwarfare probably has no clue what he is talking about. everything he said in his initial post about the beta and testing can be found in various articles about beta testing 4.1 all over the net. there are plenty of pics to snag too. besides those were some very dainty fingernails he was sporting in his pic

http://www.apple-rumors.net/ios-4-1-beta-fixes-proximity-sensor-issue/

He also posted his Xcode screenshots and requested M.E. to do the same... still waiting on them, Bro.

himoura wrote:
bro germanwarfare probably has no clue what he is talking about. everything he said in his initial post about the beta and testing can be found in various articles about beta testing 4.1 all over the net. there are plenty of pics to snag too. besides those were some very dainty fingernails he was sporting in his pic

http://www.apple-rumors.net/ios-4-1-beta-fixes-proximity-sensor-issue/

@Goflying - I know you've been putting shots across the bow of MichaelEmpire, but knowing what he's posted in the past, and the clarity of his posts when he isn't being wound up by people like me, I honestly belive he has more credibility than out German friend. All the betas have been available days before they were reported on the thread, on t0rrent. So I fully expect a lot of the early 'testin' is being done in the wild on JB handsets. I doubt our German friend is member of the press with beta testing priveliges (as he porports). He is likely just another guy.

chotty1 wrote:
He also posted his Xcode screenshots and requested M.E. to do the same... still waiting on them, Bro.

That's not going to happen. Michael is not an idiot. Nor is he going to be baited by one. His phones went back to Apple IIRC. I don't blame him.