Level 2

252 points

MacBook 16-inch Fan Noise

We are testing two new 16-inch MacBook's before doing a rollout across our organization. Under low loads (25% cpu utilization), fan noise will get annoyingly loud. We're not doing any GPU related and more routine work such as: using web applications, debugging web pages, Microsoft Teams conferencing (audio/video) with a handful of people, Photos downloading from iCloud, Mac Mail downloading a new mailbox from Exchange.

We DID NOT notice this on our 2015 MacBooks and this might prevent us from continuing the 16-inch MacBook rollout in our organization.

Interested to hear others experiences.

Tim

MacBook Pro 16", macOS 10.15

Posted on Nov 21, 2019 11:34 AM

Top-ranking reply

TimUzzanti Author

Level 2

252 points

Posted on Dec 23, 2019 9:27 AM

All,

We are kind of wrapping up all our testing and working with the Apple Business Team to figure out how we move forward.

This thread is getting a little side tracked with monitors and so I wanted to point out that these issues discussed are completely unrelated to brand/model of monitors being used. That said, it IS related to having monitors connected and the internal GPU within the MacBook, along with the CPU and the overall heat that both generate.

In our final testings, we did clean installs with 10.15.2 and primarily tested an eGPU using a Razor Core and a Radeon RX Vega 64 so we could eliminate the internal GPU in the MBP.

It became really clear the combined heat from the internal Radeon Pro 5500m GPU and the i9-9880G CPU is too much for the current thermal management system, especially when using all USB-C ports. (I.e., for power, USB-C hub, USB-C to Display Port video cables). From all the testing and heat generated by the unit, it looks like our Radeon Pro 5500m GPU is fried because we are seeing artifacts on text (laptop display and external monitors) but not when we use the eGPU.

Just so you understand our configuration with the eGPU: We have one USB-C Hub connected to the MBP and one USB-C cable connected to the eGPU. The one USB-C cable to the eGPU is powering the MBP but also the eGPU has the two Display Port cable to the monitors. Now the MBP has two free USB-C ports. This was producing about 38 degrees less heat in Airflow on the MBP.

When the eGPU is connected, we can push the MBP to about 60% CPU for sustained periods before hearing the fans at about 4500 RPM. But as many of us have noticed, when we don’t have an eGPU, we’re seeing this at 5% to 10% CPU.

We have installed Parallels and ran Windows 10 on three monitors on separate space and have done Geekbench tests and a variety of stress tests with the eGPU and its operating normally.

Bottom line, the combination of using the GPU and CPU is pushing the MBP into heat conditions causing the FAN issues and in our case, possibly damage to the GPU.

Apple had a similar issue with the 2018 MacBook Pro and people were starting to stick their machines inside a Freezer to see if they could avoid the CPU’s from stepping down prematurely.

Hopefully Apple can find a solution because these new 16 inch MBP could be incredible.

Please start a support case with Apple so we can get this resolved sooner than later and it will also protect you a bit more if you need to return your units beyond the return policy. Moving forward, its all on Apple!

Tim

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4,224 replies

SzariK

Level 1

29 points

Apr 2, 2020 11:08 PM in response to sheai

HI,

I made some easy tests in idle mode (6 and 4 minutes). The first screenshot is while lid was closed the second one while both screens were working (FHD, HMDI connection). Yesterday I was playing COD MW Warzone mode with MSI Afterburner and OSD on. Average temp. of GPU and CPU were approx. 75 degrees after 10-15 minutes of play (in bootcamp of course). I will make some tests with screenshots also.

TimUzzanti Author

Level 2

252 points

Apr 3, 2020 8:24 AM in response to sheai

Based on a couple new posters discussing Bootcamp, a few of us tried Bootcamp again last night.

Keep in mind, our original tests were when Bootcamp drivers were first released about a month after the 16inch MBP’s were released. Our results back then: CPU throttling was common and fans were maxed almost constantly and we would often be running near 100 degrees Celsius.

I’m pleased to say, we are having much better results this time around. Just like there have been some improvements with MacOS, we are seeing similar results with Windows.

Fans are more volatile under Windows than MacOS which is expected. We are not seeing CPU throttling like we did before and temperatures seem to be lower. We are using cooling pads as well and that does seem to be helping. If a $40 cooling pad can reduce the fans 25%, we are good with it.

We tested compiling some of our larger projects under Visual Studio and we didn’t have any CPU throttling.

We tested a Borderlands 3 and Starcraft both at 2560 with medium quality and we didn’t see an CPU throttling. Prior, the machine would throttle so much games were unplayable.

These tests were done with dual 4k monitors connected with a cooling pad. The configurations tested were i9 2.4 with 32gigs of memory and Radeon Pro 55500M 8GB.

This is a step in the right direction and we will probably relax our restrictions on using Bootcamp for our employees now. We are also going to do more tests and measure exact temperatures with and without cooling pads and understand when fans go full speed etc.

Wanted to share what info we found last night.

Thanks,

Tim

Apr 7, 2020 3:42 AM in response to raimiss

Tested at 1920x1200, 1920x1080 (but in mirror or with extra display) or 2560x1600.

Oddly enough, I don't see any issues with the first gen L5 UltraFine 5K display via Thunderbolt 3 running at its full 5K resolution, with or without the lid closed.

I'll do some more testing. hmm....!

raimiss

Level 1

8 points

Apr 9, 2020 4:03 AM in response to Dogcow-Moof

Lol. Yep, that “was the case” with gpu failures in the past that was only acknowledged after lawsuit ... same story with butterfly keyboard... :) and don’t even get me started on “you are holding it wrong” with i believe iphone 4 (or was it 5?). Bendgate with iphone 6? Never happened either :) just like shuttering cameras on 6s also never happened :) p.s. You are right to some degree, it’s a pitty that there’s a high chance that none of the current buyers will benefit from the fix as that might only get introduced in next itteration.

Apr 9, 2020 4:11 AM in response to ntompson

Because I can already get low power (~6 W) running only the external monitor using a legacy interface, I don't think the interface actually matters. Sure, there might be a technical difference in theory, but it doesn't seem to make a meaningful difference in practice.

I will be celebrating if I am wrong, and a TB3 to DP cable gets me <20 W with both monitors running, but it can't be possible that, 112 pages later, no-one has tried it yet. So I'm not that optimistic.

ntompson wrote:

@David - to your comment - I'm not left with much. I will test a direct connection between MBP and monitor with a TB3 to DP cable (when it arrives). But I'll be super surprised if I don't get the same results. That is, ~20 W with both monitors running, and ~6 W with only the external.

Because I can already get low power (~6 W) running only the external monitor using a legacy interface, I don't think the interface actually matters. Sure, there might be a technical difference in theory, but it doesn't seem to make a meaningful difference in practice.

I will be celebrating if I am wrong, and a TB3 to DP cable gets me <20 W with both monitors running, but it can't be possible that, 112 pages later, no-one has tried it yet. So I'm not that optimistic.

I and others tested this several times and posted the results throughout the thread if anyone cares to read it (with screenshots). I have not had the problem with heat or fans. I've shown it in clamshell mode and open with 2 4k screens connected with and without a TB3+ dock. The interface at the end of the cord does not matter, but having the latest cables should help (2.1 HDMI).

without much usage: 6-7 watts in clamshell with one or 2 screens connected through dock; 19-20 watts with an external display directly connected - or 6-7 watts if second display is through airplay rather than wired. I've had it up to 27 watts when connected to external display and exporting from FCPx so it's not static in scenarios.

Apr 10, 2020 5:26 AM in response to ahmedfromreservoir

Hello,

I think that even with 60Hz limited monitors we can have access to the "hidden" refresh rate menu.

Hit Option key while clicking on Scaled should show the menu.

Unfortunately the monitor that I'm using doesn't support 144Hz.

I just wonder if all 144Hz compatible monitors reduce power needs for AMD card in open lid mode.

I want to contribute also by saying I don't really suffer with too much fan noise (2500 RPM) when I connect an external monitor, even after hours of use, but I have the heat and consumption of 18W issue. I use a 3D software a lot (Maya) and the fans only speed up when it must, so nothing fancy.

I've tried at the beginning a lot of different cables to connect the external monitor, even some specific usb-c to DisplayPort without any conversion embedded system, but the only way to get the GPU power down is with lid close and 1080p resolution max.

I have an i9 1To 32GB with 5500 and 8Go MBP from January bought in France, I still use the previous Catalina release 10.5.3 (I'm a little bit afraid of changing anything...)

igors192

Level 1

4 points

Apr 12, 2020 4:05 AM in response to cbsturge

I hasn't fixed anything. Still 18W on my MBP 16" dGPU, both in closed lid and open lid mode.

Monitor len27q-10, pluggied via HDMI cable connected via Dock Station.

Temporary aid for me was to install Windows 10 via bootcamp, it works flawlessly, only 5w in whatever mode, two external display, one external display, close/opened lid combinations. Fans are just at 1800 rpm, and super silent.

igors192

Level 1

4 points

Apr 13, 2020 2:09 AM in response to igors192

According to below post from another forum, the only solution to get it to 5W, is to use USB-C->Displayport Cable with higher than 60Hz refresh rate of your monitor. So just cable will not solve your problem if you are on 60HZ monitor.

Given that fact, we can fix it by purchasing new display and bloody cable :)

Can be another 500-1000$ bucks to invest, and given Apple lead times for fixing and reacting, probably worth it ... to forget for year or so....

They didn't fix a thing, all the symptoms of flawed drivers are still there, I still get 18W with:

2560x1440 60Hz USB-C > Displayport Cable - Clamshell
2560x1440 60Hz USB-C > Displayport Cable - Open Lid
2560x1440 60Hz USB-C Hub > HDMI Cable - Clamshell
2560x1440 60Hz USB-C Hub > HDMI Cable - Open Lid

Tested on 10.15.4 Supplemental, 10.15.5 Beta 1. Kext versions haven't been touched since last year. As said in previous posts my only way to get it down to 5W is actually using the direct USB-C > Displayport Cable and upping frequency to 85-100-120-144Hz which is not an option on most monitor. Reports of 10.15.5 Beta 1 in the previous posts are flawed since disabling HiDpi through SwitchResX actually lowers resolution and is not suitable for most monitors.

EdwinWe

Level 1

4 points

Apr 13, 2020 6:23 AM in response to igors192

I now have my MBP 16" 2019 for almost a week and the noise combined with the heat was really disappointing, especially the noise. I almost returned it back to Apple but then I found a little gem in software Turbo Boost Switcher Pro which turns off the turbo boost from the CPU. (https://www.rugarciap.com/turbo-boost-switcher-for-os-x/) it cost my 12 bucks with taxes applied but must say I have run for 3 full days on full speed and machine doesn't go above 65c and fans stay below 2000 rpm.

I have chrome running with about 20-30 tabs open, 6 presos I am working on with a total space consumption of 4GB and 16GB memory pressure. Some word docs, excel, outlook, gitbook, VLC, internet radio, VMware Fusion and 4 VMs running and some other things at the same time.

I have an old 27" Apple Thunderbolt 2 screen connected with an adapter to a TS3+ docking and that is connected to my MBP 2016 with the lid open.

For my daily work I do not need turbo boost on the CPU to be active. Heat stays between 60-65 while CPU cores are on average between 60-80% load. I prefer to have a work environment without the noise but still like the MBP as design and speed it delivers combined with 64GB memory to have a portable home lab for fiddling around, running on the same machine.

Apr 13, 2020 7:18 AM in response to Spinnn

Spinnn wrote:

“Noise should abate...” well it’s not that simple. Noise abates but the laptop is heating too much... and the fans will kick in as soon as you begin more demanding tasks. So there’s less headroom for performance.

”Temporary aid for me was to install Windows 10 via bootcamp, it works flawlessly, only 5w in whatever mode, two external display, one external display, close/opened lid combinations. Fans are just at 1800 rpm, and super silent.”

Apple are you listening? The laptop runs the external display more efficiently in bootcamp. This is shocking. Sorry to put things this way. The spec’ed out MBP 16 inch is a PREMIUM computer.

Is it actually flawless? When I use windows 10 via bootcamp I don't see any differences at all.

how are you connecting to the external displays and is it in clamshell mode?

Apr 15, 2020 10:03 AM in response to ahmedfromreservoir

Can you please quit calling HDMI "legacy"? It's not legacy at all. It's just different with different specifications. That does not make it legacy. VGA is legacy and you can call it legacy, but calling HDMI "legacy" just makes your conversations look ignorant and lose credibility.

I run 2 4k displays at full resolution at 60 hz and it runs fine without the fans going crazy with Turboboost on.

Just for an experiment I turned off turbo boost for several days to see what kind of effect it had on my work. It has very little effect other than running 5-20 degrees cooler depending on what you are doing. Speedwise it's very little difference. I have not timed exporting my FCPx 4k videos yet but we will soon.

This MBP really is the best MBP I have owned. Frustrated at first with clamshell but now it runs great. And yes, it works great in clamshell mode with a dock connected.

If your dock isn't working right you might want to go CalDigit's website for the update they put out earlier this year.

TimUzzanti Author

Level 2

252 points

Apr 15, 2020 12:43 PM in response to krisbal

Five minutes ago one of my employees sent me an image of their screen with the same exact issue. It is the third report of the same problem from 3 different employees all running the latest supplemental.

Like I said in a previous post, we have seen some heat fan and heat improvements in MacOS and Bootcamp seems to be running much better but we are experiencing many other issues with these recent MacOS updates requiring SMC resets.

The research being done with the legacy screens, resolutions, and refresh rates have been very productive and further demonstrate there are serious concerns and that most scenarios cause excessive heat which cause the fans to be annoyingly loud and why the 16inch MBP throttles unnecessarily at low CPU usage with external monitors.

If it is true that the internal display is acting as a legacy display which a couple have demonstrated and we can all duplicate by going into clamshell, then Apple may have another hardware problem on their hands. There are chances that the driver or Metal could become more efficient under MacOS to reduce some heat and / or Apple could try to under clock the graphics cards which would reduce the performance of the laptop. I can somewhat see why Apple has been so quiet on this topic… it may not be solvable and it could be a huge liability.

This has been a very disappointing hardware experience to say the least but what's been even more disappointing is that Apple has done everything possible to not respond to the issue in any possible way. Everyone we have worked with has gone out of their way (even seeing the issues) to not say anything about it to the point of being odd.

Tim

DPJ

Level 4

1,374 points

Apr 16, 2020 7:04 AM in response to pancakes-addiction

"MBP 13" & 15" released in 2015 (2 generations ago) work fine with external monitors and do not have thermal issues."

And the majority of Macs over the past 25 years I've been using them have had medium to decent GPU's in their 15" models as Apple focused on optimizing their softwares to work with these "OK" GPU's. The 13" models used Integrated Graphics which is even worse in performance and use very little system resources.

There's a larger audience of Mac users with gaming in mind so the 16" is the first with a powerful dGPU. Trying to compare older models with far inferior graphics performance is simply ridiculous.

DPJ

Level 4

1,374 points

Apr 16, 2020 7:13 AM in response to pancakes-addiction

What's with this "justifying" stuff? Take that up with Apple. I'm telling facts about these machines.

"Apple put a more powerful dGPU in the laptop and reduced CPU performance."

Really? I don't remember any of the MacBook Pro's before 2019 with 8 Core processors. And Apple didn't reduce any CPU, Intel makes the CPU and the 2.3 Ghz 8 Core is the clock speed Intel tunes their processor to be. Furthermore unless you want laptops to explode frequency clocks must be lowered when you're running 8 Core processors, but performance is not reduced.

DPJ

Level 4

1,374 points

Apr 16, 2020 4:09 PM in response to pairadime

". If the Air and the previous gen MBP's can all run the external, and their own display, why can't I choose to run it with Intel's GPU?"

Because the AIR and all other 13" MBP's use a better version of Intel Integrated Graphics than what is in the 15" and 16" MBP's. It's always been that way. The 15" and 16" MBP's are considered high performance machines while the 13" MacBooks were never designed that way. Just like the iMac it comes only with a dGPU since it runs on A/C power. But since the 16" MBP is a portable then battery life needs to be considered so Intel offers a lower-grade Integrated Graphics for laptops that will incorporate dGPU's like the 16". The lower-grade Intel Integrated Graphics is designed for basic operations such as web surfing and emails. Connecting displays, playing games, running Final Cut Pro or Adobe Creative Suite need more powerful graphics so it has to switch to the dGPU. Overall the 15" and 16" MacBook Pro's are meant to be used with the dGPU.

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MacBook 16-inch Fan Noise