Numbers error bars vanish with Standard Deviation

I'm learning Numbers. I click a chart I've made -> I choose Error Bars -> Positive and Negative -> Use: Standard Deviation -> all error bars disappear!! Standard Deviation of the data set should show as an error bar on every column!

With any other Use setting, it just puts in some default error bars whose value appears to be NOT the Standard Deviation, and cannot be changed. Changing the Range value does nothing.

Can someone help please?

iMac 27″ 5K, macOS 10.12

Posted on Aug 7, 2020 7:00 PM

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Badunit

Level 7

30,288 points

Posted on Aug 8, 2020 6:51 AM

Without first seeing your data or the chart you want, take note of what the standard deviation error bars are. Look at SGIII's post and the chart he attached. All the error bars are the same. They are the standard deviation of the entire data set (the series he charted). If I understand what you are trying to chart, you have multiple (three) Y's for each X and want the standard deviation for each X. I am assuming you are plotting all three Y points for each X as separate series. You will need a column in your table for the average and the stdev for each set of three points. You plot the average as another series (then immediately make it the top series by changing it's "order" to 1) and choose your stdev column for the custom error bars. I changed the data symbol to a + and added connection lines, too. The base chart is a scatter chart in the screenshot below.

If I am off the mark, no problem, just ignore me. I know you said you had "stress measure for the before and after of 3 repeats of my experimental condition" which might really just be a chart of three points vs the chart I did.

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36 replies

Aug 9, 2020 5:15 AM in response to Yellowbox

Hi Ian,

That's the kind of thing. But Stress is only 1 of over 18 different measures for multiple runs of each of 3 conditions: B, M, and Y, for each of 6 participants. I won't be rearranging the 1,000s of records in the tables to match your example format, that would take me to next Christmas! I have a deadline for submitting the finished pilot study conference presentation and it's very soon.

Perhaps I'll wait until my supervisor can advise me on what stats to do first.

Aug 9, 2020 3:32 PM in response to Badunit

Thanks Badunit,

Your suggestions help with my education, and getting clear about what has to be manipulated to get to where I want to go. I may have to do a multivariate analysis first, then choose just a few measures that best represent the results of the study, then do the charting on just those in the way that you have shared. It is vastly too much work and time to reconfigure the thousands of data points for all the measures in order to get anything useable out of Numbers. If I come up with a useful in between, I'll get back to you with some kind of picture.

cheers, Dianne

Aug 11, 2020 3:25 AM in response to diannetrussell

Hi guys,

Here's an outline of the kinds of charts I want to produce from my tabulated data. For now I think this will be the best way to present it to my supervisor so we can figure out the best stats tests to do.

I'll have to do one chart for each physiological measurement. Each chart with the Before and After of 3 different conditions: Baseline, M and Y. Standard Deviation (errors) thus unique to each bar of the chart.

I hope this makes sense...

Aug 11, 2020 10:03 PM in response to Yellowbox

Sorry I have no clue how to apply that. Can the formula rotate my data 90 degrees so I can fill my formula like yours? I don't understand formula coding anyway...

Here is part of one of my actual source tables. I want the means of the HRV from column "I" (not the raw data) to go on the chart as vertical bars above their category names (baseline, before meditation, after meditation, before yoga, after yoga) side by side in that order like I showed in my hand drawn sketch. I presume I can manually add error bars afterwards by selecting a vertical bar of the histogram and 'fixed number'.... This will be one chart for one physiological measure for one participant.

Likewise, 5 more participants to go, and a few more physiological measures (eg Stress, Coherence, etc)...

meaning 6 charts for HRV, 6 more charts for say Stress, 6 more for Coherence, etc.

Aug 12, 2020 1:55 PM in response to diannetrussell

I did a cell-by-cell manual re-structure of part of a table (just one measure, HRV) to see if I could make any progress that way. But:

- it won’t allow me to select individual chart bars therefore…

- it won’t let me make the before and after conditions different colours

- it won’t label the conditions - seems to be no way to do it, nor is there any option to annotate

- it won’t let me put the custom standard deviation error bars on it; it just puts the same SD on every chart bar and that is WRONG (because it’s doing the SD on everything on the chart as if it’s one set of raw data, which it is NOT).

- if I change the specs of the error bars it actually changes the value of the data in the chart bars, which is crazy WRONG!

- if I get it to put the number value on the chart bar it sticks it either right on top therefore clashing with the error bars, or on the chart bar but so big that it doesn’t fit, or ‘outside’ below it, right where the category labels go.

My deadline is 23 August by which to have all the charting, statistics, abstract, introduction, methods, results, discussion and conclusion to present as a finished, 20 minute video talk and slide show of my pilot study.

I’m close to giving up on Numbers in frustration. Will have to resort to the old-style hand-drawing my charts on graph paper unless some breakthrough comes!

Aug 12, 2020 9:16 PM in response to Badunit

Wow, thanks!

I'll get onto that asap.

I agree about the learning curve. It's a problem. At first the conference was to be in person in the USA in April. But then COVID hit and 2 things happened: 1. the conference was postponed to online-only in December (saving me all the flight costs and planning from Australia , which was OK), and 2. all my paying clients vanished into their COVIDity challenges and I had no income. So thunk I: I now have 8 more months to get ready for the conference; I can focus on restoring my income for a few months, then back to the pilot study in July. THEN the conference was re-scheduled to September ---- 3 months less to prepare! THEN it was decided we had to pre-record our talks and have them in by mid August - yet another month less to prepare. So my planned gentle learning curve got turned into a 1,000 foot-high overhung cliff overnight! 😱😱

Badunit

Level 7

30,288 points

Aug 12, 2020 9:52 PM in response to diannetrussell

diannetrussell wrote:

Re image posting problem, I think the discussions page is just glitching out intermittently....

I could hardly do anything one day, and it all worked the next...

I thought maybe I had an unfortunate typo or something but I did not see one and the post went through after I deleted the image. Then it let me post the image by itself. Whatever.

The column width/gap settings are in the "chart" tab when the chart is selected. The bar color is in the "Style" tab when a series is selected. Value labels can all be changed at the same time if you select all of them (click, command click...) before making changes. Same with the error bars.

I used the standard set of colors for the columns in the example but you can use the color wheel instead. It is the multi-colored circle to the right of the color in the "style" tab. With the color wheel active, select one set of "before" and "after" bars, pick a color for them, then select just the "after" bar and lighten it up some with the slider. One warning though: when I was trying this out, Numbers crashed several times on me. This is a rare occurrence for me, usually. Save early and save often still applies today.

Aug 13, 2020 4:52 PM in response to diannetrussell

GUYS! I just found this bit of magic! You probably already know, but in case you don't:

Transposing rows and columns in Numbers on Mac:

Pop open Numbers on your Mac and open the spreadsheet you want to change.

1) Select the table. The transpose tool will not be clickable unless your table is selected by clicking on it.

2) Click Table from your menu bar.

3) Select Transpose Rows and Columns.

Your spreadsheet will automatically update reflecting this change.

Transposing rows and columns in Numbers on iPhone and iPad

Open the Numbers app on your iPhone or iPad and access the spreadsheet you want to change.

1) Like on Mac, select the table by tapping on it.

2) Tap the circle on the upper left corner of the table.

3) The Table Actions button will display at the bottom in green.

4) Tap that button and select Transpose Rows and Columns.

Reverting your changes

If you decide you want to revert the transposition on either Mac or iOS, just follow the same steps to access and select the Transpose Rows and Columns option. Your rows and columns will go back to their original locations.

Things to keep in mind

• Table styling such as colors, highlights, and cell outlines should retain their style when transposing.

• Formulas and functions should remain after transposing and you will receive a warning if there is an issue.

• Chart references should remain the same after transposing.

• If you have merged cells, they should transpose as any other cell, unless they are a row header. So, be cautious that these may unmerge after transposing.

• Rules you have created for sorting or filtering will not apply after transposing.

For more on these conditions or answers to questions, you can visit the Apple Support page on this topic.

https://www.idownloadblog.com/2018/10/17/transpose-in-numbers-rows-and-columns/

Aug 13, 2020 9:49 PM in response to Badunit

Ta dah!! Thanks to you Badunit, I did it! Transposed rows and columns according to someone's instructions so my dependent and independent variables are on the correct axes, then detailed my way through your steps. I feel like I'm getting the hang of this now.

Here's a screen shot of my first two participants' all-session HRV charts...

Question: I'd like to acknowledge your help on my conference presentation - are you cool with that? If so, what should I call you?

Badunit

Level 7

30,288 points

Aug 14, 2020 6:15 AM in response to diannetrussell

Looks nice.

If you feel the need to acknowledge the help, it was from a few other Numbers users on the Apple support forums. We build on each other's ideas and knowledge. I give a lot of credit to all the other users over the years, some of whom are still here posting, some of whom are not. I came here a decade ago with a question about a calculation.

SGIII

Level 8

37,532 points

Aug 8, 2020 2:22 AM in response to diannetrussell

Could you post a screenshot?

I went to the 2D Scatter sheet (tab) of the Charting Basics template at File > New in the menu and this is what I get.

Aug 8, 2020 4:30 AM in response to diannetrussell

Gonna try again...

Aug 8, 2020 4:34 AM in response to diannetrussell

It even killed the one screen shot... trying again with jpegs instead of pngs...

Yellowbox

Level 7

21,915 points

Aug 8, 2020 4:46 AM in response to diannetrussell

Hi Dianne,

I think that the "posting limits" were imposed to stop spam. Some years ago, these forums were unreadable because spammers were posting every few minutes.

Regards,

Ian.

Badunit

Level 7

30,288 points

Aug 8, 2020 1:35 PM in response to diannetrussell

Rows vs columns doesn't matter, it was the idea of how to create custom error bars and plot them, if that was what was required. It can be done with columns or rows.

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Numbers error bars vanish with Standard Deviation