Numbers: unwanted interpretation of the formatted display instead of actual value

In "SUMIFS not working" (thread

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/251000465?answerId=251997214022#251997214022

) it was stated that some formulae will use a cell's display format instead of the cell's actual value, and in addition try to interpret it, e.g. as a date.

I can confirm this long-standing bug and hope it will get fixed. I'll report it to Apple again.

For example: to avoid ambiguities and confusion, I never ever use dates/times as formats. Instead I use a simple number. My birthday is 19470126. That is an integer. But to display that value I use a custom format: ####-##-## which displays that integer as 1947-01-26. The custom format is of type "Number".

In SUMIFS (and others) the formula looks at the formatted string, tries to interpret it as a date, and then tells me the formula is comparing a date to a number.

It all works fine in Numbers 2.3 but not in 4.3 and onwards.

A formula should always work with the value, not the display.

Posted on Aug 8, 2021 12:07 AM

Reply
20 replies

Aug 8, 2021 11:44 AM in response to RobertCailliau

RobertCailliau wrote:


For the time being I'll stick to Numbers 2.3, which is also much more comfortable to use on large spreadsheets,


I think you'll find quite the opposite. Recent versions of Numbers can handle MUCH larger datasets with ease than can Numbers 2.3. Numbers 11.1 is a far more powerful app.


And reasonable compatibility with Excel IS important for some users.


Also note that Numbers DOES have a VALUE function. You might want to check it out to see if it can help with what you are trying to do.


SG

Aug 8, 2021 12:59 PM in response to SGIII

Thanks SGIII.

Sorry for not being clear, my fault: I was referring to the user interface. The new version needs far more clicks to achieve the same thing, it has no inspector palettes, only an unmovable sidebar, and its interface elements are too big, made for the touch screen.

By large spreadsheets I did not mean number of data but rather number of tables and other elements on the screen. The display in other words. And I have a very big screen (5120x1440).


As to the VALUE function, thanks for pointing it out. Its name conflicts with what it does. It just tries to make a value from a string, rather than take the value of the cell. This is explicitly shown in the example given in the explanations.


Therefore this goes wrong:


well, obviously. So, while I thank you for pointing it out, unfortunately it does not help. I should have used a different name than VALUE.

And yes, reasonable compatibility with Excel is useful.

We're stuck in some very old model of spreadsheets, dating back to VisiCalc and Multiplan. There is no strict distinction between the characteristics of the value of a cell, the way in which that value is displayed on the screen, and the way in which it can be edited. There should be four aspects:

  • the formula producing the value (which can be a literal)
  • the value (and its type, i.e. integer, character string, date, enumeration, … )
  • the display format
  • the restrictions on typing if desired (so that for example if a cell has to be an e-mail, the syntax should be checked)

At present there is a lot of confusion, automatic conversion and ad hoc decisions.

Just a few minutes ago I documented some calculations for a friend. I added a column in which I showed how some rows were derived from other ones. For example that row 20 was the difference between row 14 and row 16, so I typed 14-16 into the explanation cell of row 20. This all worked fine until I typed 21-11. Numbers immediately converted that to "November 2021"! Fortunately I spotted it, then explicitly formatted the cells as text.

A similar problem exists with leading zeroes: my postcode is 01280. I always have to be very careful with our membership database, where a lot of people have such postcodes. Extracting the addresses into a spreadsheet must format the postcode column to text before pasting, or it all goes wrong.

I remember also a very bad incident in 1992: I used Excel (on a PowerBook 170) to store licence numbers for software. For some reason I needed to reinstall Mathematica (yes, the 40MB Powerbook did run Mathematica). But the licence number was something like 123-345-567-789 and Excel had looked at that, decided I must have forgotten to type the leading formula "=", inserted it for me and had neatly added up all the numbers.

Before we reach the mountains of Artificial Intelligence, we have to traverse the deserts of the half-witted devices.

Aug 9, 2021 2:29 PM in response to Badunit

This shows that the parser of the SUMIFS function, when parsing the expression of the condition, treats 2018-08-20 as a string: 8 digits and 2 minus signs.

However for the test-values the parser uses the value of the cell: 20180820, as entered manually and formatted later on.


On this computer (Big Sur) the type of the Custom format is "greyed out", indicating the parser has to make a choice: a number or a string – which might confuse the parser. Hence an inconsistent and disappointing result.


Paul.

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Numbers: unwanted interpretation of the formatted display instead of actual value

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