Mac AZERTY is a nightmare for programmers

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Level 1

4 points

Mac AZERTY is a nightmare for programmers

There can't be a worse keyboard in the world for programmers than the Mac AZERTY layout. The most common symbols used in programming { [ | \ ~ are not even shown on the keyboard - the programmer must memorize 2 and 3 key sequences.

How can this be and why can't I find (in French or English) any mention of this atoricious design ? Maybe French-speaking programmers all use QWERTY keyboards ... but if you want to both program and write in French AZERTY makes life much easier ... as long as the keyboard isn't Mac.

I can buy a normal AZERTY keyboard but I really don't want to have to switch keyboards when traveling or in the office. The M1 persuaded me to switch to Apple ... and I'm delighted with the hardware ... but I'm so disappointed by this keyboard design ... it's a pretty fundamental thing for productivity.

I guess I haven't asked a question, just vented. Sorry. Anyone found a particularly good solution as an AZERTY keyboard user and programmer to get around Apple's bad design ?

Cheers.

Posted on Sep 28, 2021 3:24 AM

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Answer 1

Sep 28, 2021 6:55 PM in response to rusyazik

rusyazik wrote:

I can buy a normal AZERTY keyboard but I really don't want to have to switch keyboards when traveling or in the office. The M1 persuaded me to switch to Apple ... and I'm delighted with the hardware ... but I'm so disappointed by this keyboard design ... it's a pretty fundamental thing for productivity.

Product Feedback - Apple

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Answer 2

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

118,322 points

Sep 28, 2021 6:57 PM in response to rusyazik

rusyazik wrote: it seems very difficult to find information about what the several French input sources mean

You can see exactly what every key and key combo does on a Mac using Keyboard Viewer. Sorry I did not mention that earlier

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-the-keyboard-viewer-on-mac-mchlp1015/11.0/mac/11.0

French PC is supposed to be the same thing that Windows users are accustomed to. If there are places where it is not what you prefer, then it is really easy to make a custom layout with Ukelele.

Of course there is no way to easily solve the problem of what is printed on the keys. Some probably use stickers, others just use a separate Windows keyboard in instead of the inbuilt one, or get used to qwerty. I have seen one example of someone who took a qwerty keyboard and moved the key caps around to make it azerty (of course that required a custom layout to work right).

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Answer 3

rusyazik Author

Level 1

4 points

Sep 28, 2021 6:55 PM in response to Tom Gewecke

Hi Tom - Thanks for your answer. Yes, I tried the input source Français - PC. Part of the problem is it seems very difficult to find information about what the several French input sources mean ... the only information I could find was in this article https://www.journaldulapin.com/2017/12/30/clavier-francais-numerique/ which says that French PC just switches the command and option keys, which seems to be the case - the image of the keyboard when you view inputs sources doesn't show the programming symbols on the keys and in experimenting it seems that the top row still does the same things it does with the input sources.

I was thinking about doing my own keyboard layout to do exactly what you say the French - PC input source does ... it would be helpful if something already does this ... though I really don't see the benefit of entirely eradicating the symbols from the keyboard even if they might be mapped to a key or key sequence ... curly braces and square brackets are still pretty common even for non-programmers. A "normal" AZERTY keyboard has no problem putting them on keyboard.

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Answer 4

rusyazik Author

Level 1

4 points

Sep 28, 2021 6:57 PM in response to Tom Gewecke

OK ... some more experimenting and I figured out the layout with Français - PC ... on a "normal" or usable AZERTY keyboard layout ... which is being called "PC" by Apple ... there is an AltGr key where Command is and this used with number keys to get the programming symbols. The problem with Français - PC is that the entire key layout is the other AZERTY so many keys no longer produce the glyph on the keyboard. I'm a very fast touch typist for A-Za-z but I often do need look at the keyboard for symbols. I do not think this is a useful solution, though I appreciate the suggestion.

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