Blind user, Voiceover and lack of compatibility with mozilla

i expect mr. Jobs over here at apple to listen.

You are not talking to Mr. Jobs. You are talking to other users, like yourself.

get off your butts, quit finger pointing and GET MY ACCESSIBILITY WORKING!

I sympathize with your predicament, but I don't see how it's Apple's fault that Thunderbird does not adequately support VoiceOver. Apple has provided more than adequate documentation that the developers of Thunderbird could (and should) use to make it work.

Have you tried out Mail? Does it handle your needs with respect to VoiceOver? If so, you should be able to set up your account in Mail and import your mail from Thunderbird, though you may need a sighted friend's help, since Thunderbird is not usable for you.

Skype is perfectly accessible via VoiceOver. The only requirement is to add a shortcut for Hang Up, which is easy to do via the Application Shortcuts segment of the Keyboard Shortcuts tab in the Keyboard pane of System Preferences… I use Cmd-Shift-H.

Are you sure you have the most recent version of Skype (2.8.0.851)?

As for Mozilla, it may be an open source project, but it has been ported and implement on Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard. It has failed, however, to comply with all the specifications for VoiceOver compatibility, so its inaccessibility is hardly Apple's fault. If the developers (amateur/part-time/ whatever) want a full and adequate implementation on the Mac OS X platform, they need to comply with ALL the guidelines…

Open source failure to comply fully with the guidelines also explains why few VoiceOver users have taken to OpenOffice. Some releases work quite well with VO, while others are completely inaccessible. The resultant confusion is a big bar to its general adoption.

I don't require VoiceOver, but am familiar with it. I agree with the OP regarding speech not working, and who is to blame.

On the Windows side, there are 2 screen readers I know of. They just work, regardless of the software application. Scripts or Set Files are often created to make apps work better, but JAWS and Window Eyes simple do their job, they "read" the screen.

Apple has done something very, very wrong for the blind. I don't care who gets blamed, but Apple should indeed be ashamed!

WPLJ42 wrote:
I don't require VoiceOver, but am familiar with it.

If you don't require VoiceOver, why are you complaining about it?

I agree with the OP regarding speech not working, and who is to blame.

This notion reveals a basic lack of understanding of Mac OS X internals. Each application runs in its own dedicated space, and nothing else can interfere with it, not even a screen reader. The application must provide the appropriate information to VoiceOver.

Apple has done something very, very wrong for the blind. I don't care who gets blamed, but Apple should indeed be ashamed!

If Apple has done such a disservice to the blind (in particular, breaking the existing assistive technology cartel), how come so many many blind people throughout the world have voted with their +cheque books+ and bought themselves Macs? And how come so many of them are using their Macs professionally?

I'm looking forward to hearing your answers!

Yes Archie, I don't have a clue what goes on under the hood in Mac OS X. I really don't care. I use to drive a car, and frankly didn't know how it worked. Perhaps I have friends who are blind. I don't require VO, but some do.

Archie, do you think Freedom Scientific or GW Micro could get away with selling products that don't work with some applications? Yes, I know people are switching to the Mac, and using VoiceOver. I have to admit, it is easier than Jaws, and way easier than Window Eyes.

If my eyesight fizzed away, I would be furious if only some apps worked with my screen reader. I am low vision, and in my unique case, most of the Universal Access tools are useless.

I suspect the OP is really unhappy his vision has failed. To find out his computer only works with some apps, must be really annoying. When a person jumps over to the Mac, at what point do they find out VoiceOver has limitations?

Then again Archie, I am a sightling, what do I know? Say what you want against my opinion, I understand. Most of my efforts to be a good advocate have gone to waste. Seems sighted people don't make really good advocates. So I don't do much of it anymore.

Apple is wrong. A screen reader should, um, read the screen. Period!

WPLJ42 wrote:
Archie, do you think Freedom Scientific or GW Micro could get away with selling products that don't work with some applications?

Actually, they do, and they make a great deal of money doing so. One of the commonest reactions among blind switchers is "Isn't it great that VoiceOver works with so many apps?" That, of course, is after they've picked themselves up off the floor when they hear what Apple charges for VoiceOver.

If my eyesight fizzed away, I would be furious if only some apps worked with my screen reader.
I am low vision, and in my unique case, most of the Universal Access tools are useless.

I understand, but when you substitute a more accurate "nearly all" for the "only some", the situation becomes quite a lot less dramatic, doesn't it? The OP is cross that he can't use his favourite e-mail client, but Apple provides a perfectly acceptable one which is entirely accessible. My totally blind wife has been using Apple Mail for over 5 years now, running 7 mail accounts and handling up to 500 messages a day, with hardly a wobble. That's in addition to her real work as a professional freelance translator, and her voluntary task of running CeciMac.org.

When a person jumps over to the Mac, at what point do they find out VoiceOver has limitations?

Usually, quite a while after they've got to grips with it. Most often, some time after they've said, "Gosh, this is easy!" and "No, I don't want to go back to a PC ever again." And usually the first apps they moan about are not the open-source projects but the ghost at the banquet, Microsoft Office. Fortunately, TextEdit, iWork, Tables and other offerings can take up most of the slack…

Then again Archie, I am a sightling, what do I know?

So am I… but I still manage to teach VoiceOver and other low-and no-vision techniques on the Mac quite well. There's no "great divide" unless we allow it.

Apple is wrong. A screen reader should, um, read the screen. Period!

And that is precisely the point. VoiceOver is not a screen reader. It's a method of access that works on the same level of the OS as the screen or the sound output. Apps have to structure their output to send it to screens and sound processors… and if they're programmed correctly in line with the Accessibility Guidelines, that output works perfectly well with VoiceOver too. Even careless mistakes like forgetting to label buttons properly can be corrected by the VoiceOver user, as long as the app complies with Cocoa standards.

As for your own vision problem, WP, have you tried VisioVoice? It's customisable to suit most sufferers from low vision, and has helped people with all kinds of sight problems to use their Macs with complete independence.

We're on the same side… we both want blind and partially sighted people to have the fullest possible access to information, and at the moment, that means the Mac and VoiceOver.

Archie, you are the first person I've seen, point out VoiceOver is not a screen reader. I think many people who don't know any better, like myself, would assume VoiceOver was positioned as a screen reading tool. It is, and it isn't. I agree, those other guys who sell 3rd party screen readers, charge a fortune for them. Pretty silly that a screen reader should cost more than the PC itself, but there are other specialty applications doing the same thing.

I have had poor results from any magnification program. My vision is blurred. Virtually all zoom products, result in an even more blurry situation. My brain is at fault. I am going to have to return to Windows. I can change the DPI scaling with better results than anything else.

As for the OP, it is a shame there is no choice for e-mail. I use Safari, but if I want, I can also use any other browser. With VoiceOver, that isn't the case.

I sincerely hope blind people are aware of what they are switching to. As for Mac OS X versus Windows, I won't get into an argument. For my needs, it is Windows. The DPI scaling in Windows is not perfect, but it is the best situation for me. I can see Windows on this very Mac, with DPI scaling set to 125%, better than Mac OS. Resolution Independence has an unknown release date, and I am not sure if it will work.

Mac OS X is not better than Windows 7, based on my usage. I tested Windows 7 Beta and RC on this Mac in BootCamp. The problems were few, and mostly issues of non-support in BootCamp.

The OP just lost sight. I suggest looking into Jaws and/or Windows Eyes, and deciding if either is worth making the switch. Here in the U.S. Archie, we have assistance from the Government for the purchase of assistive technology. I would hope the OP is getting help and support to transition to blindness.

Archie ... Look here:

http://www.apple.com/ipad/features/accessibility.html

See how Apple says, "screen reader?"

WP, I'm not an advertising copywriter or a technical documentation writer. I'm a programmer first and foremost (besides other activities). And right from the beginning, VoiceOver was described as an access method — which it is. It is NOT a screen reader, which is a separate piece of software bolted on top, usually interpreting the contents of the screen output memory buffer.

Remember also that VoiceOver is still a relatively new piece of software… it was initially pre-released for beta testing in 2004, and made its first official appearance with Tiger on 29th April 2005. I think it's pretty remarkable that it has become such a stable, reliable system on which hundreds of users depend totally.

All the best,

Archie

I suppose the OP has given up on this thread. Too bad. Archie, you may have been able to tell him/her how to use Mail to do what was wanted in Thunderbird. We are not going to agree on VoiceOver. I really don't care if it is sort of new. It is positioned, in my opinion, as an alternative to Windows. I don't believe it is. If some users are happen, so be it. I would not be. To the best of my knowledge, there is other screen reading tool for the Mac, Apple is it. Bummer. At least on the other side, there is choice. The program you mentioned for my low vision is a joke compared to just about anything on the Windows side. There is barebones speech access in Windows, as it should be. There is basic speech in Linux too. Something as sophisticated as a screen reader does not belong in the OS, especially when it eliminates competition. VoiceOver is not an acceptable replacement for Jaws or Window Eyes. As for the outrageous expense, many blind people get the cost covered by the Department of Rehabilitation. So the tax payers foot the bill, as it should be. I use Alex on a regular basis. While he sounds more realistic than the others, he does not enunciate as efficiently as the robotic ones.

I agree about the OP… pity, as I do regularly train people to use Apple Mail with VoiceOver.

If you want to read about real people's experience with VoiceOver, I suggest you have a look at MacVisionaries, and at Josh de Lioncourt's website at Mac-cessibility. I constantly hear people saying things like "I switched to a Mac four months ago and I wouldn't go back to Windows and JAWS (NVDA/WindowEyes) if you paid me."

But I don't expect you'll bother, as you've obviously made up your mind to trash VoiceOver at every opportunity, and berate Apple for providing decent access for blind people at low or no cost into the bargain.

Have a nice life,

Archie

I have never needed to use VoiceOver, Jaws, or Window Eyes, but have tried them all. Used VoiceOver yesterday, and assisted someone in a different thread. It is fine if people are happy with Mac OS X and VoiceOver. You continue to mention cost, as if it matters. Yes, those software packages on the Windows side often cost in the four-digits. I like VoiceOver more than the others. Look up and you will see I have said that already. I like and use Safari, and Reader. I don't use Mail or any other email client. I'm a Yahoo! guy for email and bookmarks. That is my choice. If my eyesight suddenly failed, the Mac and VoiceOver is something I could learn in a heartbeat. It would upset me each and every time I was told no on a particular application. A buddy of mine years ago, was very unhappy when Real Player was not accessible. He was willing and able to pay for out of town baseball, but was told no. That stinks. Sorry if you can't see that.

Jim

Hello Jim,

I have never needed to use VoiceOver, Jaws, or Window Eyes, but have tried them all.

Just trying them isn't quite enough to know how good or bad they are.

Used VoiceOver yesterday, and assisted someone in a different thread.

Yes, I saw. Thank you.

You continue to mention cost, as if it matters. Yes, those software packages on the Windows side often cost in the four-digits.

Probably for the majority of users in the world, it actually does matter. It even matters for a lot of users in the US, as it would appear they have to get funding approved, and are not always successful. Here in France, my wife has had to pay for everything, computers and specialist equipment, because our income is above the minimum wage and she does not work for a large company.

I like VoiceOver more than the others. Look up and you will see I have said that already.

Pardon me for being confused, but on 20th August, didn't you say:

Apple has done something very, very wrong for the blind. I don't care who gets blamed, but Apple should indeed be ashamed!

In the opinion of most of the blind people I talk to, Apple has done something wonderful for the blind. They can now go into any shop that sells Apple products, and buy something they can use immediately, without any further installations or purchasing extra software, right down to multi-lingual support for iPhones, iPods and iPads.

If my eyesight suddenly failed, the Mac and VoiceOver is something I could learn in a heartbeat.

It might take a little longer; there are around 200 commands. But you're correct in that it's a great deal easier to learn than the PC equivalents, or so I've heard.

It would upset me each and every time I was told no on a particular application.

Then you would contact the developers, once you'd calmed down, and ask them politely to rectify the situation by complying with Apple Developer Guidelines, just as blind Mac users have been doing since Tiger came out. Microsoft Office, for example, is not accessible, because Microsoft has not taken the trouble to make it so.

A buddy of mine years ago, was very unhappy when Real Player was not accessible. He was willing and able to pay for out of town baseball, but was told no. That stinks. Sorry if you can't see that.

RealPlayer is now accessible, because the community of VoiceOver users asked RealNetworks to make it so. Perhaps your buddy was one of them.

All the best,

Archie

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree Archie.

This is my second iMac. I've blown $2500 on Macs that are just as much trouble as PCs. The AOL Radio Player does not work with VO. I've given them 'what for' many a time. The Player has not been modified since 10.5.2, and still resides in Beta. I use VO once in a very blue moon, and it works well. I only use it to read text / proofread. All I have to remember is how to interact and stop interacting with things. Screen Readers work completely different from VoiceOver.

My old baseball buddy was back in 2000. Real Player was not accessible in Jaws. An old pal of mine in South Africa, used Window Eyes at home, but was forced to use Jaws at work. Window Eyes would not function with his job software. What do you tell the blind person using VoiceOver to do, when VO simply won't work on the job? I am not fond of Apple, but you have figured that out already. It is a shame VO has the limitations it does, regardless of cost. I have to blame Apple, it is there product.

My last dealings with DOR (Rehab.) were back in 2006. Computers from Apple were not an option, nor was there anyone to teach Mac OS X at our local blind center.

Who knows where the OP has gone. I guess the issue is resolved.

Jim