Unable to login with user folder on external drive since 12.5.1 upgrade

Kestrel27, thank you for your valuable input!

Also had done a few checks in Terminal and had found some unusual results, but couldn’t take my courage to actually change/delete or otherwise do something (except the aforementioned attempts).

My „event history“ is very similar to yours and I’d like to add my findings, in hope that it’s helpful for some.

Since the 12.5.1 update I’m also getting 2 Volumes in Terminal for the external ssd: [Volume] and [Volume 1].

ls -l /Volumes

Both contain a Home Folder with the outsourced user account.

ls -l /Volumes/[Volumename]

By listing the contents of these, Terminal writes

for [Volume 1]: (the expected and visual contents)

- Applications (user level)

- Desktop

- Documents

- Downloads

- Library (user level, invisible in Finder)

- Movies

- Music

- Pictures

- Public

(and some folders from Application packages)

for [Volume]

- Desktop

- Documents

- Downloads

- Library (user level)

- iCloud Drive (Archive)

Listing the contents of these mostly gives: total 0.

Except for the Library, which lists over 50 entries. But all these are also listed for [Volume 1/Library].

Another difference for the 2 Volumes:

On the user level, the Home Folder for [Volume 1] is connected with Group „wheel“ whereas [Volume] is connected with Group “staff“.

For the Group Names on the Volume level, I'd say that the external user account is also part of Group „_analyticsusers“.

At least

id -Gn [username]

seems to confirm.

At this time I hope for upcoming 12.6.1.

If that does not finally untangle the issue I’m tempted to go for Kestrel27’s approach.

Thanks again, cheers to everyone and let's hope for a convenient fix for all of us…

Might it be possible to just rename the Volume, restart, boot into the Admin on the internal ssd, switch User Home Directory for the outsourced user back to Volume, reboot and then the direct log in to the external user might be possible?

(But first I need to clarify what's all about with these 300+ MB).

That seems reasonable. I don’t know where to look for the missing data.

coping a new user folder unto a external drive then directing it in the settings/Users and Groups/Advance etc was a snitch in Ventura...I only encountered one single problem and that was related to using pro tools plugins, it turns out some apps require libraries to be in the internal hard drive...I am not sure if this is a temporary problem.

The only other problem if at all is app cleaner can't trash any system files linked to an app your trying to un install...but it can if you switch users to the admin on the internal drive.

Other then this my 80GB of notes, 45GB of app docs etc are now on a external drive home user account working flawlessly.

I think its best to AVOID booting directly into a user home folder on external SSD, I say boot into the the computer and have the user choice screen, at least I have not seen he problems you guys mentioned and its been working flawless for me in Ventura...apart Pro Tools, app cleaner or maybe a few apps requiring full disk access....

what's cool about Ventura is that you get notifications if apps like Rogue Amoeba is installing things in the background....then you can go into settings, General, Login Items and shut it off.

R.Simon wrote:

Updated to 12.6.1 (including Safari 16.1) using the Admin Account on the boot volume and had no issues (except that the update procedure involved 5 automated reboots [see posting above]).

Can't comment on macOS Ventura (which might be the OS version that you probably asked for) because I never upgrade to a new OS version before at least the 2nd or 3rd point update is released.

I can tell you that the changes Apple implemented in Ventura are even more towards isolating this issue, but who pulls the plug in the end is not fair..

Ok so there are strange things you should be aware of in Ventura, I did have my drive go down once and got weird messages that the user could not be logged in "AT THIS TIME"...I realised that the drive was not mounted, restarted and all went perfect but..., maybe I should share the Ventura issues so we see what's ahead.

-Plugs for pro tools audio won't load on External SSD home folder., but do so internally,

-Folders using aliases to other drives in users directory (example documents, music etc) get replaced automatically when apps launch.., for example I had a alias to the "Audio Music Apps" folder on a external drive, loaded with custom presets...well, after launching Final Cut or logic none of my custom presets would be there., I went back to look at the folder thinking it was linked to the back up drive and noticed it had no I can, I put back the alias again and upon launching logic I watched it disappear and be replaced by a fresh none alias folder with default settings., then used symbolic links and it all worked., so Symb-Links are now required for outside system directory too., in fact almost all the users home directly will require this via the terminal.

But weird things did not stop there, I returned to the internal SSD user home directory to install another plugin by SSL (solid State Logic as advise by their tech help) as it failed in the external SSD home folder., and it was successful, I don't know what this plug in is installing but its part of a bundle so I have no clue why Ventura refused to install correctly on a external SSD home folder.

But wait, even more weird stuff, I created custom audio plugin settings while int he internal SSD home user account,

they where stored in " Audio Music Apps" folder, which on my music folder is an alias to a an external HD,

But when I switched users to the external SSD the alias folder to the sale external HD with custom audio settings would be replaced...so I used symbolic links via terminal and all went well..but after returning to the internal SSD home user the custom presets I had created vanished, like as if they belonged to another user and became invisible..so I again created a Symbolic link to that same "Audio Music Apps" folder on a ext HD and it works for both internal and external users, its like I have to re link the folder...but how the settings vanished and re appeared is beyond me.

What's interesting about Ventura which I can't remember if the same in Monterey is that if you drag drop a load of files unto a folder with files which have matching names it will give you the give you the option to replace them...but if you change your mind after wards you can literally undo it and all the files will re appear..I thought I drank too much wine when I saw that one.

Anyway no trolling meant by brining up Ventura, I thought maybe you guys should get a sneak peek at what's coming.

in macOS Ventura's discussion thread, there are over 135 ME TOO reports, for a similar problem:

SMB File Sharing not working in Ventura - Apple Community

Solution was : Turning file sharing off, Reboot, turning file sharing back on.

after an update/upgrade, security tokens/codes related to verified connection, do not get properly updated or validated in newer update/upgrade process,

so i think, thats why we are seeing this similar problems,

users need to re-verify the shared-drive or shared-resources, etc.

This is being observed for External SMB-based drives, SMB-based NAS drives, Shared-folder/volume in mac computer, Shared printer in macOS computer, etc etc.

i'm sure, much more experts with more apple proprietary tools are debugging, to find a solution.

( but, installer creator should not just create such a buggy update/upgrade installer , this is not a small mistake, all shared-drive related major folder/resource is/are untouched by update/upgrade process !! to me it appearing as, they are forcing everyone to use a better/longer security token, etc, thats harder to replace-with false stuff/attempts. )

I'm preparing to change my set up to the "Symbolic Link variant" (which I wanted to use on my next Mac anyway), but at the moment, I will continue to use the workaround for a while, at least until I've found some more background to our actual issue.

Almost all of the Library-based apps which store large numbers of large files can be set to store their libraries on another drive. Photos, Music, TV, etc. all allow you to set the location for the data. Mail is likely the only one that would take up a lot of space (attachments) that doesn't allow moving the storage.

There are some apps (GarageBand) that store templates in the Library folder, so those would still be an issue.

You can always store Documents anywhere you want.

I forget if it was mentioned previously, but you can leave Apple with product feedback here and hope they fix the issue (Apple will not respond to you).

Product Feedback - Apple

However, I would not hold my breath as it involves an advanced customization affecting a small number of users. Like I said previously, I highly recommend not deviating too much from macOS defaults because people risk having their system broken by a simple macOS update patch. With Monterey, it seems Apple has been causing compatibility issues with each & every update patch in one way or another even on systems with mostly default setups. Keep in mind it was several months before a macOS update fixed the issue with third party NTFS drivers which affected a lot of users (an earlier macOS update broke those third drivers -- Apple never acknowledged an issue nor hinted at preparing a fix....Apple support pointed users to the third party developers to provide a fix, while those third party developers told users to have Apple fix it --- technically it is up to the third party developers to ensure their software works with the OS).

The more complex a custom configuration, the more likely something will break so users need to be prepared to deal with these situations (finding their own fix/workaround, waiting for Apple to fix things, or finding a simpler more stable way to configure the system to achieve a similar result). However, since Apple does not communicate with users about various issues, people will remain in the dark as to whether Apple is even aware of the issue and whether a fix is even being planned or if the issue is going to be ignored. Apple products have never been about custom configurations, but simplified setups and ease of use (having the ability to customize is nice, but not something guaranteed by macOS). If you look at how macOS has evolved over the years, you can see simplification is the direction Apple has chosen.

I think @Kestrel27 has the right idea on how to fix the issue, but it is hard to provide clear precise instructions (I believe another user posted something similar earlier in the thread as well). For those of us not directly experiencing the problem, it is impossible to provide the detailed instructions even though I know basically what needs to be done. Some of the process may require the user to figure out specific details on their own like @Kestrel27 did by trial and error which can be risky if you delete the wrong item. Definitely make sure to have a good backup of your data before attempting to make any changes. Once data has been deleted from an SSD (especially after the Trash has been emptied), there is no way to recover the data from the SSD due to how SSDs work. Trying to recover deleted data from a hard drive is possible, but expensive and/or time consuming.

@Barney-15E

My bad. Haven't thought about the "Go to" Menu…

You are right: that way, both Volumes are shown, both with name [Volume] (no numbering).

(The contents are as I noted above).

One is a Volume (Volume 1 in Terminal), one is a folder (Volume in Terminal).

The Volume is what can be seen in Finder, it holds the User Home Folder with the expected (pre 12.5.1 update) content.

The "Folder version" also contains a User Folder (default folder icon, no macOS Home Folder icon) with Desktop, Documents, Downloads and iCloud (Archive) (all with Default Folder icons).

All of these are empty, except Desktop, which hold aliases to Guest and Shared on the internal ssd.

Folder Info lists over 300 MB for the Folder and also for the containing User Folder, but the visible folders within this User Folder are just a few KB. (Haven't searched for any invisible content, will do tomorrow).

Might it be possible to just rename the Volume, restart, boot into the Admin on the internal ssd, switch User Home Directory for the outsourced user back to Volume, reboot and then the direct log in to the external user might be possible?

(But first I need to clarify what's all about with these 300+ MB).

@Tom Rich

Interesting find! Thank you for the link.

The description is a bit unclear to me though, as I don't quite understand what he means with that indicated difference between "admin privileges" and "Admin".

In my case, both User Accounts -the "fall-back" account on the internal and my User Account on the external ssd are "Admin" accounts, as I the usage of an "Admin" account and a "Standard User" account (which was a recommended set-up for safety reasons in the earlier days of OSX) is no longer needed nowadays.

But in general, it seems to be our actual issue and what billcody names as FILE is actually the Folder with the Volume name…

Had the idea that you were referring to the "12.5.1 log-in" bug after an upgrade to macOS Ventura…

Later on, I found that Ventura obviously has some issues with TCC resulting in issues with privileges to accessing certain data or Volumes.

(But the article I read did not make clear whether it's a general issue or if this only comes up on upgraded systems aka no "clean install").

…it turns out some apps require libraries to be in the internal hard drive…

This is something that I also experienced here with Modo.app, which did not launch from the external user account, but did from the one on the boot volume. The issue was introduced by a macOS update.

I imagine 2 possible reasons for this: the app in question is programmed with a hard link to a User Library on the boot volume, does not find one and refuses to launch. Or it’s related to some app license checking routines where a set up with a Home Folder on an external volume was not considered in programming. (But it's guesswork after all).

…I say boot into the the computer and have the user choice screen…

The issue handled in this thread is that a log-in to an external User Account on system boot wasn’t possible anymore.

Neither with „automated/direct log-in“, nor via the User selection screen.

Affected users had to log-in into a User Account on the boot volume, log-off again and then log-in into their usual User Account on the external hdd/ssd.

In general, as the set-up with an external User Account is an option provided by macOS and with symlinks being a standard Unix feature, I would expect Apple to care that these features do work properly (even on non-US systems). The actual state however makes me reconsider my planned investments as I now assess the (actual and future) situation as more reliable if one keeps the Home Folders on the boot volume while storing most user data externally. (Don't expect Apple to bring internal memory upgrade prices to appropriate levels, which would make things heavily easier of course).

Have send a bug report to Apple via Product Feedback with link to this thread.

If our issue is a result of some security changes within macOS, it's probably unlikely that a fix will arrive with 12.5.2 or later.

But hopefully we get response explaining the causes.

I'm preparing to change my set up to the "Symbolic Link variant" (which I wanted to use on my next Mac anyway), but at the moment, I will continue to use the workaround for a while, at least until I've found some more background to our actual issue.

If no simpler solution arises, I'll switch to symlinks and will report back here (provided that the thread stays open).

Agreed, this is correct.

Unfortunately, I'm using several applications where bigger data sets are stored within the User Library which cannot be moved elsewhere.

Another reason for shifting a whole User's Home Folder to an external volume would be the simple fact that it is a much more sorted set up in comparison to scattering larger data blocks elsewhere.

Shifting the User Home Folder to an external ssd never caused (to me) any issues for many years.

Other data that I'm not relying up on a daily base is stored on several other external volumes.

As long as Apple demands these extra charges for internal storage, I prefer to put the same money into much more 3rd party external storage.

It's usually a carefully considered set up when a user decides to shift the Home Folder to external volumes and it is based on individual needs and working routines. It's clearly not useful for everyone, but useful for some.

Similar to a decision whether to use iCloud or not. It might be convenient, but not everyone wants to or is allowed to store personal data on cloud storage.

Nevertheless, 15.6 is on the horizon and it probably already fixes the issue. If not, symlinks would be my route.

cannot launch with user space relocated o… - Apple Community

Same problem, same workaround. In my case the user space is relocated onto an apple-supplied spinning disk system.

Thanks to HWTech for letting me know about this thread.

For the record, reinstalling macOS under Apple support supervision does not correct this issue. I don't know what cruft raederlandree cleared by doing whatever fixed the issue in their case, but it was something more than an issue with the System.

I don't think restoring well over a terabyte of my data to a reformatted disk is a viable solution. I doubt I could do that, at least not without a lot of effort.

This problem needs a real solution, Apple.