Apple Watch Ultra is not Sensitive enough to detect sleep stages

Hello All,

I have a Garmin Fenix 7S with First Beat Algo and Apple watch ultra.

I am getting pretty big variances between Sleep Stage values between the two where I suspect Apple Algo is wrong and doesnt work well with me. Many others have pointed this out that Apple watch does not effectively determine deep sleep enough.


This is a typical sleep for me in a week.


Yet here is apple:



I think Apple classifies too much Deep Sleep as CORE sleep for me.


This is a known issue with the Youtuber Quantified Scientist and his latest test with Theresa where a significant portion of her DEEP sleep was mis-classified as CORE by a HUGE margin.


I think while the Algo works well for a lot of people, there are enough people out there where this algo fails us for sleep stage tracking.


Can you please advise. Thanks.

Apple Watch Ultra

Posted on Jun 2, 2023 6:56 AM

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4 replies

Jun 2, 2023 7:53 AM in response to Elysios

Because the Deep Sleep values apple is reporting is points to pathological issues.


I read white papers of hypnograms from different resources and Deep sleep occurs more often than not in the beginning 50% of the sleep session and happens relatively quickly when you do sleep.


Apple fails to detect that. In fact apple picks it up for me after a while while Garmin picks it up as you'd expect.


Also referring to this white paper:


https://assets.firstbeat.com/firstbeat/uploads/2019/11/Firstbeat-Sleep-Solution_white-paper_short.pdf


You see the typical sleep hypnograms and note that in both instances, deep sleep is detected properly in the beginning half of sleep. I get that with Garmin devices yet Apple Watch ultra only picks up SLIVERs of deep sleep in time frames that are frankly wrong. My sleep profile correlates strong with the Quantified Scientists's latest vid of Theresa as I link here:


https://youtu.be/BQMIAkt4P48?t=893


Theresa sleep profile shows Apple Watch Ultra have very poor deep sleep detection.


Also, if you read online from many people, there is a consistent theme that Apple fails to detect enough Deep sleep when measured against other wearables and people are also questioning this.


I am just showing some data to go against but you are right, how can we trust Garmin. But one thing to note is that 10% of deep sleep is apples high end for deep sleep for many many users and i think the typical deep sleep percentage for a session is 16-33% of total sleep time.


Yes I did a ton of sleuthing reading and seeing what others / studies have shown.


Apple just claims to be gold standard tested but where do we see it besides the quantified scientist where he can be the N=1 where the algo works great. Yet even in his test Theresa shows us that it doesnt work well.


Where do you see the validation studies outside of Quantified Scientist youtube showing good correlation against PSG?

Jun 2, 2023 10:24 AM in response to TheRealWayne

Even on Apple's own website.


Track your sleep on Apple Watch and use Sleep on iPhone - Apple Support


The sleep hypnogram they use is highly unlikely that sleep is detected properly if you look at what Sleep hypnograms are typically structured. Is that what Apple wants to use as a "typical exhibit" for what Apple Sleep tracking is? With these lines of deep sleep?


Deep sleep arent in lines / minutes. They are in a bit longer phases.

Jun 2, 2023 7:31 AM in response to TheRealWayne

Why do you think that the Apple Watch is giving you wrong readings and not the Garmin? From all the reviews and huge tests I have seen, an Apple Watch will give you the best reading on average of all smartwatches on the market.

One of the hardest challenges for sleeptracking of smartwatches is the REM sleep phase tho because there are, aside from the eye movement, barely any characteristics that would classify the REM sleep as REM and not as core sleep.

But you are right, in the end, the sleeptracking is an algorithm which has been trained. Maybe it works better for different people, although Apple claims it has been developed on a huge variety of different people and characteristics.

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Apple Watch Ultra is not Sensitive enough to detect sleep stages

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