8K ProRes Raw footage becoming overly soft when edited/exported on 4K timeline in FCP.

Hey,


Ive been tasked with colouring a bunch of stock footage (8k ProRes raw footage from a DJI inspire 3.)


to be exported in 4K H.264.


i completed the first round of grading & sent it for review.


one of the revisions is the footage is much softer than the 8k originals.


I hadn’t really noticed as I’d only viewed the files in fcp & they look fine (same while editing & export) however after getting the feed back, I went and looked at the original files (played in finder) & the client was right (that’s a first 😂) the original 8k is so much cleaner, sharper etc.


Im trying to wrap my head around why putting 8k footage in a 4K timeline is coming out soft! If anything it should be extra sharp!


Any help is greatly appreciated!


cheers :)

MacBook Pro 16″, macOS 10.15

Posted on Jun 5, 2024 2:09 AM

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Posted on Jun 5, 2024 4:03 AM

Nothing says it has to be extra sharp! Anytime you convert image size, you'll have some degree of image quality loss, period. A native 4K image is sharper than a resized 8K image, as it is using all original, unaltered data. The shrunk image has lost data in order to fit into the smaller size, the pixels have to be rearranged. FCPX is not the best at resizing video footage.


You could get something like Topaz AI Video and that'll do a fantastic job resizing it, but you have to pay for it, and it is slow at processing, but gives about the best resizing results on the planet.


PLUS you're going to H.264, which although it has come a long way and can produce some stunning image quality, I'd try exporting your stuff as ProRes 422 and see.

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Jun 5, 2024 4:03 AM in response to CRKDYTH

Nothing says it has to be extra sharp! Anytime you convert image size, you'll have some degree of image quality loss, period. A native 4K image is sharper than a resized 8K image, as it is using all original, unaltered data. The shrunk image has lost data in order to fit into the smaller size, the pixels have to be rearranged. FCPX is not the best at resizing video footage.


You could get something like Topaz AI Video and that'll do a fantastic job resizing it, but you have to pay for it, and it is slow at processing, but gives about the best resizing results on the planet.


PLUS you're going to H.264, which although it has come a long way and can produce some stunning image quality, I'd try exporting your stuff as ProRes 422 and see.

Jun 5, 2024 9:52 AM in response to CRKDYTH

I don't have any 8k ProRes RAW but I have lots of 6k ProRes RAW from our DJI Ronin 4D and also 8k RED RAW from our V-Raptor.


I tried the 6k ProRes RAW in a 6k and 4k timeline, exported as 6k and 4k from the 6k TL using H.264 and ProRes 422, also the 8K R3D in a 8k TL and 4k TL, exported as 8k and 4k PR422 and H.264 from the 8k TL and 4k from 4k TL.


I viewed it on a calibrated 5k Apple Studio monitor. I couldn't see much difference in any of the permutations.


If you are viewing 8k on a 5k or 6k XDR monitor vs 4k on those same monitors, in theory the 4k should be less sharp -- it has 1/4 of the pixels of the 8k frame. If you are viewing it on an HD monitor, iPad, etc. I'm not sure you could see the difference.


If the final product will be uploaded and re-encoded for streaming, I tend to doubt you could see a difference during playback.


However I remember years ago there were some issues with FCP whereby 4k downscaled to 1080p seemed to be a bit too soft. I don't remember if that was resolved or defined as expected behavior.


As Ben said, anytime you rescale there will be scaling losses. That is why in Photoshop there are various resampling and scaling options (see attached). There is no single best way to rescale an image -- each algorithm has various tradeoffs.


I vaguely recollect some NLEs automatically add sharpening when rescaling, and FCP does not.


I suggest in FCP, duplicate the timeline, then in that timeline, remove all the effects with Edit>Remove Effects. Pick a frame and put a marker on it. Use the R key to draw about 2 frames, then export that as 4k H.264. Then do that in an 8k timeline with the ProRes RAW material, mark the same frame with the M key, use R to draw about 2 frames on the timeline and export that as 8k H.264. Examine those in Quick Look or Quicktime Player and see if there is any visible difference.

Jun 5, 2024 10:17 AM in response to CRKDYTH

A lot of people noticed this behavior when using a "multiscreen" effect I created awhile back. If the pixel size of a clip does not exactly match the project size, and (certain kinds of) Effects are added, clips can soften when scaled down — which is really strange! — to say the least.


Try making your clips a compound clip before exporting. If that doesn't work, then copy the effects from your clips, turn them off in the inspector, then Paste Attributes to the compound clip. This will necessitate making every individual clip a compound clip if you have different effects and effects parameter settings for each individual clip.


HTH - no guarantees!

Jun 5, 2024 8:47 AM in response to BenB

having a “better looking” 4K from an 8k file has always been my experience. Definitely never experienced softening of image & colour shifts the way I have!


I think this has something to do with the pro res raw side of things.


for people playing at home here’s a photo. Same frame 3 different looks.


top frame is 8k inspire 3 PR Raw to dlog comversion in an SDR library with standard dlog lut applied. Exported as a single frame on a 4K timeline.


middle is screen grab of finder preview of same frame from original 8k clip.


bottom frame is 8k inspire 3 PR Raw to dlog comversion in an wide gamut hdr library with standard dlog lut applied. Exported as a single frame on a 4K timeline.


The client is right, the middle is definitely sharpest (may not be able to tell via the compression here), then bottom then top. But other than sharpness the colours are so different! It’s doing my head in & making colour grading to their feed back really difficult as we’re looking at two different things.


any help much appreciated:)



Jun 5, 2024 3:37 PM in response to fox_m

Although the title concerns soft footage, there are two separate issues mentioned. (1) The soft footage and (2) The various color conversion pathways from ProRes RAW to the final distribution codec.


The color conversion issue is quite complex, esp. when dealing with ProRes RAW, so I'll respond to that tomorrow.

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8K ProRes Raw footage becoming overly soft when edited/exported on 4K timeline in FCP.

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