How to copy time machine backups to new drive

Copying Time Machine backups using ANY method has not worked for a number years now. People have tried everything from "cloning" apps to various unix command in terminal to apps that can perform bit-for-bit copying methods. None of them work anymore. It is no longer possible. There are a lot of posts about this in Apple Discussions.

The best you can do is stop using the backup drive and start a new one with a new drive. Between the two (the old one and the new one) you have access to a full history of backups.

The reason the drive has become read-only to you is that once it is designated for Time Machine backups, the OS marks it as read-only except to Time Machine. To be able to use that drive again, you will have to remove it from Time Machine and erase/format it.

Have the same problem (can't copy backup folders to another disk) for the same, and also a different, reason.

1) As with DeepChartreuse and reedsnet I occasionally want to make a copy of an existing backup folder on another disk for reasons of tidiness. Guess I can't.

Maybe one way to do this if you are crazy - is to restore the old backup to an iMac, then backup the iMac to the new drive, then restore the iMac from the first backup drive. I guess this would work if you only wanted to do it once or twice and had a LOT of time on your hands. Crazy but.

2) "Just keep the old one. You can access files from that if needed"

This doesn't work generally. It violates the whole point of doing backups.

If an old file (that, say, I suddenly needed) ONLY exists in an old backup on my T/M backup drive because it has been deleted (deliberately) from my iMac then there won't be copies of it in recent T/M backups.

So there is now only one copy of that file on one disk. One "original" copy - Hence not actually a backup of it.

If that old file is lost because the drive dies, or T/M needs to free up backup space and deletes an that old backup folder, or corruption, or .. whatever that old file is gone forever.

I used to, occasionally, copy an old backup folder onto a 2nd disk. I.e. a backup. Can't do that anymore.

What I have to do now is occasionally do a second T/M backup to a second disk and make sure the oldest backup folders are never deleted. Now I have two copies of (almost) all files even if they are no longer on my iMac. Effectively an "original" backup and a "backup" backup copy. Two copies!

A pain to do this though. Apple doesn't seem to fully understand "commercial" grade backing up processes.

Oh, and if DeepChartreuse, reedsnet and I sound paranoid that is the whole point of doing proper backups Apple!

rodm7 wrote:

2) "Just keep the old one. You can access files from that if needed"

This doesn't work generally. It violates the whole point of doing backups.

You don't understand the difference between a BACKUP and an ARCHIVE. Time Machine does backups. They can be used to recreate your files as they are now, or as they were at some point in time earlier.

If an old file (that, say, I suddenly needed) ONLY exists in an old backup on my T/M backup drive because it has been deleted (deliberately) from my iMac then there won't be copies of it in recent T/M backups.

So there is now only one copy of that file on one disk. One "original" copy - Hence not actually a backup of it.

Again, you want an ARCHIVE (permanent record of a file you may decide to delete). Time Machine does enable you to restore all your files as they were in the past, or as they are now. But since the oldest backups are eventually deleted to make room for new ones, if you delete a file from a Mac, it will eventually disappear from the backups. That's how it is intended to work. If you want ARCHIVES, do that with a different application.

What I have to do now is occasionally do a second T/M backup to a second disk and make sure the oldest backup folders are never deleted.

You cannot tell Time Machine to NEVER delete older backups. It will do it whether you like it or not.

Apple doesn't seem to fully understand "commercial" grade backing up processes.

You are confusing the concept of ARCHIVING with BACKING UP. You need a different program if you want archival copies of files.

rodm7 wrote:

I've always had to delete backups manually to get a backup to proceed when the disk fills up.

If you are deleting backups from the Time Machine backup drive, it is likely you have corrupted the backup bookkeeping system and that may explain why you are having repeated issues. Apple recommends starting with a new Time Machine destination drive when the original one fills up.

If the Time Machine backup disk for your Mac is full - Apple Support (CA)

You still have a complete record of backups because either disk can be used for restoring files and between the two, you have the sum of both their histories, the old plus the new.

Have you tried to restore files from older backups on the Time Machine drive you have been manually deleting files from? I suspect your backup pointers are corrupted because of the manual deletions you have performed. I would not trust the backup if you have been doing this.

a. I DO archive (copy) many files and directories (usually to Flash Drives) when I know the data are critical and I keep these archives forever.

Flash drives are probably the LEAST reliable storage media you can find. They are mass produced very cheaply and are not a robust way to store files long term.

b. Often, however, I don't know ahead of time what files are going to be critical to me in the future so can't do special targeted archives of them. I used to archive everything, but only occasionally, and this is where the old T/M system helped a lot. I could occasionally archive an entire old backup folder easily.You can't do this now.

I can't archive everything all the time "just in case" (way too much data - I'm not rich :( ha ha ).

A better archive strategy might be to make a "clone" type backup of your computer, or of at least the folder with the key files, periodically when you feel you need to preserve something for a long time. Make the clone onto reliable storage, not flash drives. Programs like CCC or SuperDuper can make these clones.

If you are trying to archive by copying backup folders from your Time Machine backup, while manually deleting other Time Machine backup folders, I am suspecting that it is possible that neither your Time Machine backup nor your "archives" are sound, reliable copies of what you think they are. I would advise that you revert to a more robust strategy: use Time Machine as it was intended; don't manually modify/delete its backup folders; if it fills up, start a new one while keeping the old one; "archive" by making reliable copies to separate media.

rodm7 wrote:

1. Thanks again Steve626,

I guess we had better be careful to mention I’m talking older Time Machine system, and you are (?) talking current T/M system for anyone reading this. Different behavours?

Possibly different behaviors. This is the Sequoia Discussions area so I assumed Time Machine is being run under Sequoia. If you are still using an HFS+ formatted Time Machine backup drive that was carried through multiple MacOS upgrades and has remained in the older Time Machine formats, I think some of those may tolerate moving, copying, deletion of files via Finder, but some may not. It is not something I would depend on for something as important as backups. Those need to be bullet proof. The Time Machine catalog will certainly become corrupted and unreliable if it is one that was started up and utilized under Sequoia on an APFS backup volume.

2. I can’t keep adding new hard drives. Just too expensive for me. Ditto too expensive to save full cloned copies.

Too expensive? That is an individual decision point. A 5 TB external drive costs ~ $100 (US). A Mac costs $1500-$3000. When I fill my car with gas, it costs about $60. People buy Starbucks coffee drinks for $5 each, some people do this every day or every week. Someone using a Mac or a PC should be keeping high quality backups and archives of some sort. Otherwise, what is the point? All electronic devices will absolutely fail at some point. Computers typically last 5 years, I have Macs still running well from 2010 and 2013 and 2015 (15 years old for the 2010 laptop). How important are those "critical" files?

3. I have restored old files, and even done a full MacOS system recovery once when my hard drive corrupted. Backups seem healthy.

That is good to hear but deletion of portions of the backup folders and files on the Time Machine drive is a well known way to corrupt the backup.

4. I’ve had several backup drives physically fail but never a flash drive. I do only buy quality ones.

If you are saying "flash drive" and mean inexpensive thumb drives, those are not reliable for long term storage. If you mean high quality solid state drives (SSD), those cost 3x-4x what a mechanical drive equivalent costs, and those are very long lasting, but still, not forever.

5. You have made me think of something I should be doing though - compressing files BEFORE archiving to save space and hence money!! Thx!

I would be careful about how you compress them. You need to be able to uncompress them years later, sometimes tools like that change over time.

You (and some others posting here, including the original poster) should maybe rethink your backup strategy. Please see PRP's post about a 1-2-3 strategy. This is how companies back up critical and customer files. But in the commercial world, they keep multiple redundant copies because they see EVERYTHING, natural disasters, etc.

I can personally attest to why PRP's 1-2-3 strategy is important. I have lived in my home (single family, standalone house) for more than 30 years, and never had any "threats." Until two years ago, a pipe failed and water flooded, maybe 2 meters from one of our computers (with its backups connected in place). No damage there but came close. And just last week, here in Southern California, we have had two massive wildfires. One came close to my home and we had a mandatory evacuation in the middle of the night -- sirens, police with loudspeakers, "Evacuate NOW, Leave NOW!" I will never forget. 30 minutes to grab the most important things, put them in a car, and flee. I only grabbed laptops, left other computers behind but took their backups. Houses not far from us have burned to the ground but ours is fine; that said, such a disaster (as well as a broken pipe flood) can destroy both the originals and backups unless you have some stored "off site" -- see PRP's recommendation. It won't happen to you ... until it does. Almost everything can be replaced ... except things like photos (digital or film/paper).

iCloud is helpful because those files are preserved even if your computer is physically destroyed. But it does not protect you against accidental deletions or mistakes that corrupt files. The cloud files, which mirror those on the computer, are also lost or damaged immediately. Most cloud storage systems allow recovery of deleted files for some period of time, maybe 30 days. But sometimes these things happen and are only noticed after that time has passed.

DeepChartreuse wrote:

How to copy time machine backups to new drive

You do not. Full stop.

Just like you, I bought a new larger Time Machine drive, but I don't want to just loose all my previous time machine backups by starting over with the new drive. Yes, the new drive has backed up my current system as it is today, but what if I need a file as it was modified in the past? That was the whole point of Time Machine.

Thanks Steve626, comments appreciated

two things:

1) "You cannot tell Time Machine to NEVER delete older backups"

My T/M has NEVER deleted old backups. I always get a message saying "your disk is full" and backup just stops.

This can occur hours into a large backup i.e. no warning at the start that the backup will eventually fail (very annoying).

I've always had to delete backups manually to get a backup to proceed when the disk fills up.

Other posts have stated the same thing. (I know this doesn't occur for everyone - so something to do with the old T/M, or the way a disk is formatted, or ....??)

This may have changed with the most recent T/M system. My new 6TB drive has never filled up yet to know.

2) I understand Archiving, but in my case:

a. I DO archive (copy) many files and directories (usually to Flash Drives) when I know the data are critical and I keep these archives forever.

b. Often, however, I don't know ahead of time what files are going to be critical to me in the future so can't do special targeted archives of them. I used to archive everything, but only occasionally, and this is where the old T/M system helped a lot. I could occasionally archive an entire old backup folder easily.You can't do this now.

I can't archive everything all the time "just in case" (way too much data - I'm not rich :( ha ha ).

T/M backup folders are a "closed" untouchable system now. I understand why - just a pity that Apple can't provide some mechanism for "handling" (e.g. copying / deleting) individual Backups.

I would happily give up some of the efficiency of the new T/M system for more of the old flexibility.

Thanks again Steve626,

1. I guess we had better be careful to mention I’m talking older Time Machine system, and you are (?) talking current T/M system for anyone reading this. Different behavours?
2. I can’t keep adding new hard drives. Just too expensive for me. Ditto too expensive to save full cloned copies.
3. I have restored old files, and even done a full MacOS system recovery once when my hard drive corrupted. Backups seem healthy.
4. I’ve had several backup drives physically fail but never a flash drive. I do only buy quality ones.
5. You have made me think of something I should be doing though - compressing files BEFORE archiving to save space and hence money!! Thx!

rodm7 wrote:

1. Thanks again Steve626,

I guess we had better be careful to mention I’m talking older Time Machine system, and you are (?) talking current T/M system for anyone reading this. Different behavours?

2. I can’t keep adding new hard drives. Just too expensive for me. Ditto too expensive to save full cloned copies.

3. I have restored old files, and even done a full MacOS system recovery once when my hard drive corrupted. Backups seem healthy.

4. I’ve had several backup drives physically fail but never a flash drive. I do only buy quality ones.

5. You have made me think of something I should be doing though - compressing files BEFORE archiving to save space and hence money!! Thx!

To use this analogy

You have a High Performance Car = Apple computer that requires High Octane Fuel = External Drives for TM Backups.

But you can't afford High Octane Fuel to run the vehicle ?

So, why have such and expensive car = Apple computer in the first place

To truly protect your non replaceable Data

Have a 3-2-1 Rescue Plan in place and always current

3 Backups using 2 methods and 1 off site incase of natural disaster or un-natural disaster.

Each of the above should be done to a Dedicated Single Purposed External Drive 

Below link is intended to augment what TM Backup does 

https://bombich.com

rodm7 wrote:

I can't archive everything all the time "just in case"

I think you finally understand. There's no such thing as infinite backups or archives. Using Time Machine or any other method. You will eventually run out of space or money.

Just keep the old one. You can access files from that if needed.

Please understand what steve626 has stated.

"That was the whole point of Time Machine."

The point of Time Machine is to be able to recover stuff going back a certain period. If you want to be able to recover stuff for ever then you need a different sort of backup strategy.

You'll need a very, very large NAS with RAID that allows you to swap out disk drives when they fail without losing data. It will need to be future-proofed, so you'll be looking at pro-level kit with some agreement with the supplier for guaranteed ongoing support for the rest of your life. This NAS will, of course, need to be backed up too, or you could run parallel backups. You'll need an offsite backup too, in case your house floods or a lightning strike that's stronger than your surge protection allowed for - you have got surge protection on your TM, haven't you?. I assume you've also got a UPS for your TM to allow for graceful shutdown in case of power outages. The offsite can be done over a network connection - again, there are companies that can do that for you - and you'll need a backup of the offsite too. I'm not a backup pro and I'm sure that someone who really knows their stuff would tell me that this approach isn't enough, but it would be a start to meet your odd requirements to be able to recover every file in every save-state going back for ever

I reckon you could do all the above for less than £30k with annual support costs of less than £1k per year, but it really does depend on what you mean by "the past", how much data you've got and how often it changes.

Or, you could understand how TM works and develop your own file management and archiving system. For example, in the UK you're only required by law to keep tax information for 6 years. Most keep it for 7 years just in case. If you got any tax-related files that are more than 7 years old then they are a waste of space and you should delete them. I'm curious as to what are these files that you need to be able to recover every single version going back for ever?

Remember also that a lot of your TM will be files used by apps and bits of the OS. If those things go obsolete or change significantly then those files are useless - if you can't run an app then why would you want to be able to access its plist from 2015?

As others have pointed out, you need to understand the difference between backup and archive. If you want to keep scans of your daughter's wedding invitations and meal menu then archive them to a separate set of discs.

Finally - if you've only got one TM disc then it's a poor strategy. Drives don't last for ever. I run:

a daily time machine to an airport on prem

a weekly TM to a NAS on prem

a weekly plain copy of my data files, music and photos to NAS on prem

a weekly plain copy of my data files, music and photos to USB disc on prem

a weekly TM to a USB disc off prem (metal shed at bottom of garded)

a weekly plain copy of photos, music, data to a USB disc off prem (metal shed)

plain copies of photos on a USB disc at my folks each time I visit

plain copies of photos on a couple of hundred DVDs at my folks

I test my TM backups about once a quarter to make sure I can recover files successfully because, as you probably know, backup isn't a backup until you've restored it.

Finally - iCloud is not a backup and should not form part of any backup strategy.