Minor Video Stutter

Just connected the new ATV(2), and watched a few free TV shows...I'm noticing some slight playback stutter (video only) - seems more like an encoding issue than streaming - wired connection, and had no pauses or audio stutters.

It presents sort of like dropped or missing video frames...Curious if any others are noticing this. I'm watching on a projection system (missing the 1080!) so perhaps this issue is exaggerated for me, but it's clearly there...

iMac i7, Mac OS X (10.6.4), 8 gb RAM

Posted on Oct 1, 2010 5:35 AM

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308 replies

Oct 22, 2010 7:01 AM in response to Greg Bastug1

I just downloaded an SD movie directly from atv2 and the film was a bit juddery though did not frame drop as badly as movies streamed from my iMac

With me what I can say for certain is

1. Its not a network issue. I have a gigabit router with ethernet to the atv2 running at 100mbits/s
2. Streaming from iTunes purchased and handbraked movies and TV episodes frame drop
3. Same movies streamed from iMac to Sony BDP-S370 using Servioo media server does not frame drop.
4. The stuttering is significantly worse when the buffer is full.
5. When the buffer is full iTunes polls the atv2 every 45 seconds as seen in the firewall logs.
6. Running the kernel in 32bit or 64bit mode makes no difference
7. I am using a Samsung LE40 full HD TV

Oct 22, 2010 7:27 AM in response to Joshua Garrett

Well, video played back on a Mac or PC is almost always going to have a minor frame skip now and then. It's not synced to video like it should be in a home video product.

When playing a video on a mac or pc you might also get video tearing. This is where if you could slow down time you would see the top portion of the video frame load to the screen, then the computer screen refresh and then the bottom portion of the frame load to the and the top part of the next frame load. In other words, taking a snapshot in time you'd see half of one frame and half of another frame on the screen at once. This tear can migrate up or down the frame over time as the frame rate of the movie playing is slightly different than the sync rate of your monitor.

I don't think quicktime does this though. I suspect it would instead skip or drop a frame as described next...

This also shouldn't happen on a home video device like the apple tv because the playback of the movie should be synced to the refreshing of the screen. It waits to load the next frame of the video to the screen until right after the screen refreshes (between refreshes). And it should get the job done before it starts the next refresh. If it doesn't make it in time or if it takes too long to load a particular frame, it has to wait until after the next monitor frame is done refreshing before loading that next movie frame, and by then it would either be a frame off or it has to skip or drop a frame. This is what we're seeing: DROPPED FRAMES.

I'm going to beat a horse until it's good and dead here.. with some technical info:

I just checked and my computer monitor is currently at 60hz. Ok this is going to be confusing but computer monitors are 60hz, 75hz, and other rates but the '60hz' in a computer monitor is true 60 while a tv's refresh at 59.94hz. TV's will often say they are 60 in a status menu but this is a generalization. Some newer TV's are capable of displaying many different sync rates including true 60 hz - and my dell monitor is capable of syncing to video at 59.94hz when fed via an hdmi input. But true 60 is rare in the video/tv world. If it's being fed hdmi from a bd player or apple tv it is 59.94 no matter if it says '720/60' or not. And.. to confuse things even further from a BD player it could be 23.976fps (and say 24). But I'll get back to my point...

Oh and a quick side note for those in the UK.. all modern tv's will play HD at 59.94 even in the UK. Which is why in BluRay authoring we don't have to convert 60i material to PAL and author a different version for that market (like you do with DVDs). If we don't region code we can release the same BD there as here in the USA. Therefore apple tv can output to the same 720/60 in all markets. HDMI is a world wide standard.

If I play the Sky High movie I purchased from iTunes using quicktime on my mac it will try to play it at it's native 23.976fps. I've not seen the video tearing thing in quicktime and I assume qt syncs to the refreshing of the video card - in my current case true 60hz. If quicktime does the traditional thing it would introduce a 2:3 pulldown and play the first frame for two refreshes, the second frame for 3, and then back to 2 and 3 and repeat. The 2:3:2:3 pattern will take the 23.976fps and turn it into 59.94fps. However, my computer monitor is refreshing at true 60hz, which means that there is a .1% difference in rates. Eventually it will have to skip the cadence in order to catch up - but with film material not have to skip a source frame. Doing a little math, it takes 1000 frames for this .1% difference to amount to a full (frame converted) frame. Once every ~16.7 seconds it would need do a 2:3:2:2:2:3. Honestly, even as a video professional I don't think you would notice this because it would still be playing every one of the original frames at least twice.. no single frame is getting completely dropped. Our eyes have been used to seeing this cadence forever as this is how 24fps movies were converted to play on our old tv's.

If the software isn't smart enough it MIGHT do a 2:3:1:3:2:3 - and THAT you might notice. Chances are qt just repeats each frame as many times as needed until it's time to play the next frame. And in that case you would probably get odd cadences, which might or might not be more noticeable. I really have not examined this too much to know what they're doing. I don't watch movies on my computer. BUT I hope that apple tv, which supposedly plays everything at 60 (I believe 59.94 and not true 60) is programmed to turn 23.976 into 59.94 using the traditional method of a 2:3 pulldown.

Now, if the movie was stored on a slow computer hard drive, or if it takes too long to decode a frame from the compressed stream, then the computer can't load the frames fast enough to play them all - and you'd get a dropped frame. For film sourced material this is when one or more of the original 23.967 frames in that second is not played at all. *This is what I think we are seeing in the new apple tv.*

A couple of important things. In my description above I was talking about playing back on a computer with a monitor refreshing at true 60hz. Like I said I believe that the apple TV is not true 60hz like a computer but is 59.94, so for 23.976 material it should be sticking to a strict 2:3 cadence without the need to ever skip through the cadence.

The other important thing is that dropped frames are more likely to be seen on 30fps progressive material (actually 29.97) than on movie/film 24fps material because the cadence would be 2:2:2:2. And even more likely to happen on real tv stuff that has 2 fields per frame. In that case there are 59.94 discreetly different fields per second to fit into that 59.94 frames.. so that cadence is 1:1.. if anything data is delivered or any frames are decoded late you would see a real dropped frame.

Couple of points I'm making here with this overly long explanation:

1. It doesn't matter how video plays on a computer - a home video product like apple tv should play tv shows and movies without dropping any frames.

2. In Sky High, which is 23.976, I noticed less dropped frames than I noticed on the tv show which was probably 59.94.

3. IF apple tv WAS true 60fps, and if you were playing a 59.94 fps tv show on it - it would have to drop a frame once every 16 seconds or so. I don't think this is what's going on because there is no reason for apple to make the apple tv deliver true 60fps. No home video products work that way.

4. I suspect that source frames are dropping - meaning that something is preventing them to be presented fast enough. That's either a problem decoding frames fast enough or loading material off the buffer fast enough. This could be caused by a background task. Hopefully it's not that the hardware simply isn't fast enough.

Ok.. I think the horse is sufficiently beaten and dead.

Oct 22, 2010 7:56 AM in response to Michael Smith29

This particular video I'm referring to is handbrake ripped Blu-ray of Gone with the Wind. So you think the issue is happening in the playback and the encoded video is actually fine? I haven't checked all the Blu-ray rips I've done but I've seen it in most of them.

I'm seeing the stutter happen in the same spots whether I play it on the new Apple TV or my iMac using the QuickTime player. Could I play it somewhere else, in another app, machine, monitor to test whether the problem is the encode or something else? I encoded Gone with the Wind for my Apple TV and specified 24fps, and another copy using the default iPhone/iPod preset. Both videos stutter at the same spot when played using the QuickTime player on my iMac. None of my ripped DVDs stutter either on the AppleTV or iMac.

Oct 22, 2010 8:19 AM in response to rz22g

Thats what I was thinking, this is not a random jump/stutter. I can play it back, iMac or AppleTV, and it jumps at the same spot every time without fail. I don't believe its a case of struggling hardware or network streaming. I'm not blaming it all on Handbrake either, I might be using the wrong settings to encode. I'm starting with the AppleTV preset, changing anamorphic to none, checking keep aspect ratio, changing width to 1280, and changing frame rate to 24.

Oct 22, 2010 8:32 AM in response to Michael Smith29

Along the line of thought of it being a sync rate issue, I was going to ask if anyone is seeing this with television shows. Since those are 30fps, I would think they should sync fine with the Apple TV's 60Hz output, whereas a movie, at 24fps, might be more prone to the issue. I haven't tried TV shows myself, but it sounds like Michael has, so I guess that might rule that out.

As I've indicated before, I think my issue was resolved when turning off my TV's advanced 3:2 pull-down settings, but I can't swear that it's 100% solved. It was certainly greatly reduced to the point that I could actually enjoy watching something. I'm tempted to promise that I'll go back later and look more closely for the issue to see if it's still popping up (less frequently), but a part of me would also prefer to remain ignorant and happy as long as possible.

One thing I'll add (I think it was mentioned earlier here - or certainly in one of the several threads I've posted to somewhere in the interwebs), but my test video (opening sequence of Monsters vs Aliens, encoded at 720p using Handbrake from a 1080p Blu-ray rip) seemed to play as smooth as butter on my iPhone 4. One other theory I had somewhere was that perhaps the RAM (which on the Apple TV and Apple TV is half as much as the iPhone 4) is not quite large enough, but that theory should also be disproven by: A) Comparing video on an iPad to see if it does not have the issue, and/or B) Encoding a movie using a lower bitrate, which should consume less RAM, and see if that's still displaying the issue on the Apple TV.

One other tidbit that somewhat surprised me. I looked at the manual for one of my TVs and it claims that it can accept the following sync rates over HDMI:
- 59.94Hz
- 60Hz
- 23.98Hz
- 24Hz

So we still don't know for certain whether the Apple TV is outputting a true 60Hz signal, or a 59.94Hz signal (which TVs will report as 60Hz). If anyone owns a TV that will indicate the true sync rate, perhaps you can clear up that piece of info.

Oct 22, 2010 9:22 AM in response to Joshua Garrett

I agree that if it happens in the same place every time it's in your encode that way. Especially if you can rewind and replay the section and see the same thing.

I also don't think your settings are correct. I would keep the FPS the same as source. Don't mess with that. If it's a film source and the BD was encoded at 24 it is really 23.976. Don't change it to 24 cause the only way it can do that is to drop or double a frame every now and then (depending on if you're speeding it up or slowing it down.. which I'm too tired right now to figure out which is happening). But by changing the frame rate in hb you burn that dropped frame into the encode. I suspect that's your problem.

Oct 22, 2010 10:15 AM in response to Joshua Garrett

Joshua, your problem is not an ATV issue. I agree with the previous poster. I believe you are inputting the incorrect frame rate in handbrake. I know because I've experienced it myself. And, sometimes leaving it at the default "same as source" can also encode wrong. I like to use this program before I encode to get the details.

http://download.cnet.com/VideoSpec/3000-13631_4-176898.html?tag=mncol;7

Out of courtesy though, you should investigate another forum as this is not related to the judder that everyone else is questioning here with the ATV2. But, I can understand you looking here initially.

Oct 22, 2010 12:21 PM in response to Greg Bastug1

As mentioned I can view the handbrake movie perfectly well streamed from the Serviio media server. In fact the whole experience is a lot smoother.Also the movies and rented TV shows play perfectly when run on my iMac. I dont see stutter at the same place every time

I am going to stream my test movie using air video to my iphone4 linked with component cables to my TV to see if I get a glitch. As the atv2 has an A4 chip like the iphone4 I will get a good idea if the hardware is fast enough

Oct 22, 2010 12:34 PM in response to morgajx

I'd like to suggest that we keep this topic focused on the stutter/dropped frames from the ITunes Music Store content, since that is the scenario that is completely (short of network issues) which is completely in Apple's domain and should be the easiest for them to diagnose. Once we start talking about ripping and encoding locally, from a wide variety of sources, the topic may become diffuse.

They may be the same issue, but may not be - perhaps a separate thread on Handbrake ripping/playback issue would be good...

Oct 22, 2010 12:45 PM in response to Greg Bastug1

I think that it is important for them to know that a wide variety of HD material (some SD material has also been reported) is stuttering/dropping frames, INCLUDING, and perhaps most importantly, their own encoded/sourced material from the ITunes store.
It should be a given that as long as this content is within the published spec, it should be fair game, whether HD Grey's Anatomy rental from Itunes store, or a handbraked HD encode of my son's baseball game.

Your point about the thread becoming diffuse is well taken though. I think it's important that everyone is talking about the same symptoms, under 'generally' the same circumstances.

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Minor Video Stutter

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