Setting up large orchestral template - should I use Bidule?

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Setting up large orchestral template - should I use Bidule?

I have always had problems with projects being unable to cope with large numbers of tracks loaded with East West (Play), Kontakt and VSL samples. I now have a powerful 8 core Mac with 8GB RAM, but the limit seems to be between 40 and 60 tracks before the project starts overloading and crashing. I would like to set up an orchestral template in Logic so that I can work more efficiently, but I would need to load many more tracks to give myself a large enough palette to work from.

I know that people work with larger numbers of tracks with the same spec as me, and I have noticed recently that they are often using Bidule to host the different plug-ins. I wondered if it was the use of Bidule that helped them to have so many instances of a particular library running at the same time? Despite having scoured Google, I have no idea what Bidule is, what is does, or how to use it. Can anybody tell me if this could help me with my overloading issues and allow me to work with larger numbers of tracks?

Mac Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.8), 2 x 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3

Posted on Oct 29, 2010 5:50 PM

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Answer 1

Oct 29, 2010 10:08 PM in response to idolamore

I don't have any experience with Bidule, unfortunately, but I use Vienna Ensemble Pro for hosting my large template. If I am not mistaken, it works in a similar way.

I have written a tutorial about setting up an orchestral teplate with Logic 9 and VE Pro, if you are interested you can find it here: http://www.novatlan-sound.de/blogfiles/ve_pro_and_logic_tutorial_11.php

Hope that helps 🙂

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Answer 2

idolamore Author

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Oct 30, 2010 4:29 AM in response to Novatlan Sound

Thanks for your response. As I do not have a slave PC, is VE Pro right for me? It seems that its main purpose is in hosting plug-ins between computers?

The template tutorial looks interesting though and I shall have a good read through it before setting up my own template. As a Logic 8 user, rather than 9 - I don't know how different they are - will the set-up you describe be similar to the way it's done in 8?

Thanks.

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Answer 3

Oct 30, 2010 5:03 AM in response to idolamore

Yes, you can easily use VE Pro for hosting stuff on the same Mac that also runs Logic. I do this, too, in addition to having a slave PC. In fact, it is very easy to host instruments within VE Pro and access them within Logic on the same Mac, that's why I highly recommend it.

You will have no problem following the template with Logic 8, there should be very little differences.

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Answer 4

dhjdhj

Level 2

194 points

Oct 30, 2010 5:19 AM in response to idolamore

See http://www.plogue.com

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Answer 5

idolamore Author

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Oct 30, 2010 5:57 AM in response to dhjdhj

Thanks, i've already looked there, but it's all greek to me.

I still don't really understand the purpose of an application like Bidule/VE Pro. What benefit do they provide to the user, that I don't currently get without using one of them?

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Answer 6

dhjdhj

Level 2

194 points

Oct 30, 2010 6:15 AM in response to idolamore

As far as I know, VE Pro is essentially a host for plugins. Plogue Bidule (which can host plugins) also provides a lot of manipulation of audio and MIDI data, similar to what can be done with Max/MSP, but from your original comments, is probably less relevant.

The main reason you might want to load your plugins in a separate host is if you're running 32-bit applications and you are loading enough data that you are running out of "address space". In a 32-bit application, you can only address up to 4Gb. But two separately loaded apps can EACH address 4Gb and since the Mac makes it easy for MIDI and Audio to be sent from one app to another, this can be a viable (albeit sometimes a little clumsy) option.

Given what you're trying to do, it may also be appropriate for you to be running multiple machines on a LAN so as to distribute the workload.

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Answer 7

dhjdhj

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194 points

Oct 30, 2010 6:18 AM in response to dhjdhj

By the way, although I would love to use VE Pro myself to help with similar problems, I refuse to buy any product that requires the use of a hardware dongle, having been bitten too often in the past.

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Answer 8

idolamore Author

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5 points

Oct 30, 2010 6:35 AM in response to dhjdhj

Thanks for a really interesting response - could you just elaborate on the 32 bit/ 64 bit thing? I'm not sure whether my applications are running in 32 or 64, or how to find out.

I am mainly using Logic 8, VSL Special Edition, Kontakt 3 and some different East West libraries within PLAY - do you know if these are 32 or 64 bit or can it depend?

Also I just read that Snow Leopard is 64 bit, whereas I'm still on Leopard - would installing Snow Leopard help free up some RAM?

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Answer 9

dhjdhj

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194 points

Oct 30, 2010 7:49 AM in response to idolamore

Elaborating deeply on this stuff is beyond the scope of this forum. Logic 8 is 32-bit. The latest version of Logic 9 can run in 32 or 64 bit. However, most plugins are still only 32-bit until their developers update them. There is a bridge tool (which I have not used) that allows 64-bit Logic to communicate with 32-bit plugins but I understand it's not that reliable.

See http://www.macworld.com/article/142379/2009/08/snowleopard_64bit.html for a discussion on Snow Leopard and 64-bit operation.

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Answer 10

Oct 30, 2010 9:37 AM in response to idolamore

Answering surely isn't beyond the scope, at least not in brief:
Kontakt 3 is not 64bit (Kontakt 4 is, however). VI is. Play (the East West Engine) is not.
For 64bit you need indeed Logic 9, and yes: it would help. What you can do with VE Pro is the following: Run Logic 9 as 64bit, but have your 32bit instruments in VE Pro. This way you can benefit from the better performance of 64bit Logic while still being able to use your 32bit plugins without using the Bridge.
Added bonus: VE Pro can use VST plugins, which Logic can not.

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Answer 11

dhjdhj

Level 2

194 points

Oct 30, 2010 10:30 AM in response to Novatlan Sound

Any reason why you couldn't use MainStage (32-bit mode) to host the plugins instead of VE Pro? What benefits does VE Pro give you over MainStage?

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Answer 12

redlogic

Level 1

60 points

Oct 31, 2010 1:51 AM in response to Novatlan Sound

Novatlan Sound wrote:
For 64bit you need indeed Logic 9

AND Snow Leopard...OP is still on 10.5.8

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Answer 13

Nov 1, 2010 6:36 AM in response to idolamore

For what you want to do I definitely think you'd benefit from getting 9 and running the 64 bit version. The latest versions of Kontakt and VSL are 64 bit, unfortunately PLAY still isn't and who knows when it will be, it's still held up by iLok incompatibility. If you have the old Kontakt versions of any of your PLAY libraries, I'd recommend running those in Kontakt 4.1.

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Answer 14

idolamore Author

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5 points

Nov 1, 2010 5:11 PM in response to Mike Connelly

Thanks for all responses, some useful info coming out.

@Mike/ Novatlan/ dhjdhj - Now thinking of upgrading to Snow Leopard (already have this but haven't got round to installing), Logic 9, Kontakt 4 and possibly VE Pro or Bidule. This would presumably give me access to all of my RAM as I'd be running 64-bit.

BUT - and this is the bit that confuses me - if I want to run EW Play in Logic 9 (unfortunately don't have the old kontakt versions), how would this affect my RAM usage? Would that mean that Logic as a whole would only address 4GB even though the rest of the samples are 64-bit? Alternatively, if I host the Play instruments in VE Pro/Bidule and the Kontakt and VSL instruments in Logic, will that mean that I am able to access all my RAM?

(By the way I only have VSL Special Edition is this 64-bit as well?)

@dhjdhj - I don't know, is there any reason why I couldn't use MainStage to host the plugins instead of VE Pro/Bidule?

Finally, I have just been watching a tutorial about the Kontakt Memory Server which apparently can use up to 32GB RAM. Do you know if I run this in my current 32-bit set-up with Logic 8 using up 4GB RAM if it will access the remaining 4GB to run the Kontakt instruments? This final option wouldn't cost me any money and would it mean I was actually using my 8GB RAM to its potential?

Sorry, that took a long time to write, hope it isn't too confusing. Any more advice muchly appreciated.

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Answer 15

Nov 2, 2010 7:13 AM in response to idolamore

idolamore wrote:
(By the way I only have VSL Special Edition is this 64-bit as well?)

All the VSL instruments can be used in 64 bit, you just need to make sure you have the latest version of the plugin from their website.

Finally, I have just been watching a tutorial about the Kontakt Memory Server which apparently can use up to 32GB RAM. Do you know if I run this in my current 32-bit set-up with Logic 8 using up 4GB RAM if it will access the remaining 4GB to run the Kontakt instruments? This final option wouldn't cost me any money and would it mean I was actually using my 8GB RAM to its potential?

Kontakt 3.5 does have a memory server so I'd try that out first if it's not enabled already. It's not as good as the memory handling in 4.1 but still a pretty big improvement. The spectrasonics stuff has memory servers in the latest versions too, check the prefs to see if it's on. Using the memory servers for all these plugs will let you use more ram but Logic still runs out pretty fast in 32 bit.

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