2 x "helpful" is not enough

Miriam is very wrong with the reason she says why we lost the +/- system.
As Tuttle and Bee say, the ones who used to try to fool the rules were very rare and get caught very quickly.

The reason why the plus/minus system is gone is very different and IMO doesn't need to be mixed with this kind of behavior controversies:
The older system was giving the forums an entirely different spirit, where terms like "discussions" and "community" really were meaning something, as advices and side-ideas etc were living and were being shared with a lot of enthousiasm and constructiveness.
I would go as far as it was actively participating in the sense of "thinking different" which made Apple what it's become today: the very best and by far.

The current system is calculated for a quick and "canned" type of help for "robot-posters", which could more accurately than "discussions" be called "after-sales service"...

AxL: The current system is calculated for a quick and "canned" type of help for "robot-posters", which could more accurately than "discussions" be called "after-sales service"...

Not saying I disagree -- I wasn't here for the older system -- but can you please elaborate. How did the previous system enable more of a sense of community and a livelier spirit? How does the present system deaden things and prevent genuine discussion? (I do sometimes feel constrained by the need to stay pretty much strictly OT.) Personally, I like digressions, they add a sense of personality. But I'm not sure that's always in the best interest of the OP. But an example maybe?

EDIT: And, if this is true, is it the system that's responsible, or just the way things have drifted?

I'll take this a step further than WZZZ - I, for one, do not consider myself to be a "robot poster" and don't appreciate the generalized inference.

Tuttle wrote:
One ID = one account, yes, and

• using multiple accounts to manipulate the points system at Apple Discussions is against the rules, but

• there are many reasons an Apple customer might have multiple accounts (Apple IDs), and

• having multiple accounts (Apple IDs) that aren't used to game the points system at Apple Discussions isn't against the rules.

Sorry; maybe my command of the English language is lacking here; but I was taught that an "or"...

+You agree to not create multiple IDs or otherwise manipulate the points system.+

...used as a conjunction, defines the content of the sentence as two separate "entities" or separate possibilities:

1. no multiple IDs (which means no multiple accounts)
2. not manipulate the points system

Barbara, my command of the English language is lacking, very. All I was doing is starting to think and share, clumsily I know.

WZZZ, elaborating:
Well, in the current system the general sense of having to reply as quickly as possible and as OT as possible, and the general sense of a thread being "already dead" once two or three replies are made, no matter whether there could perhaps be better replies made later.
In the previous system,
there were not this sense you mention, of being focused on the "will and desire" of only one poster, the OP. At the contrary, OP was like an opening to the general interest of anyone would like to read. Anyone would enter the thread, read, find useful advices and tips etc, add a comment or something useful, give a Plus or a Minus to any post by anyone in the thread, no matter he was the OP or just a signed-in reader.

Personally I never used my Minuses, and was one of those who thought the Plusses were enough,
but this is not the important part.

The important part is that it was not only the OP with his personal individual problem who could award points: It was any Apple Discussions Member who could award any post that was useful in the interest of Apple Users.

Axl, the OT part of what you seem to be mourning certainly still exists, vide this thread. Any one can, and does jump in. Not to be disputatious, but I believe the old system (thank you for reminding me that it was + and-) led to gross excesses, with people minusing posters they disagreed with, whether in that thread or others. That was, I believe, one of the major reasons that the + - system was discontinued.

Perhaps we do need more stars, but the thread does belong to the OP, and it is s/he who needs an answer. OT remarks may be amusing, helpful or simply stupid, but it is the "will and desire" of the OP that needs to be served.

As with Barbara, I don't feel that I am a robot, I answer questions to the best of my ability, if I don't have an answer, I don't post, or if I am in the middle of a conversation and something comes up that I can't deal with, I ask for help from wiser heads.

To Redarm: yes it would be great if we could simply scroll down and see which post provided the answer, but realistically, eight of ten OPs simply mark their thread answered without indicating what the actual solution was or who posted it. In these cases, stars are irrelevant, and I'm afraid these cases are the great majority.

There is a tendency these days for new posters to not bother looking at previous topics or even doing basic searches about their problem. The result is the same questions being answered over and over and over again, so some amount of canned response is to be expected. Granted, some have elevated it to novel proportions, but I suspect that most of the regulars have at least some prepared texts lying around.

MGW wrote:
Axl, the OT part of what you seem to be mourning certainly still exists, vide this thread. Any one can, and does jump in. Not to be disputatious, but I believe the old system (thank you for reminding me that it was + and-) led to gross excesses, with people minusing posters they disagreed with, whether in that thread or others. That was, I believe, one of the major reasons that the + - system was discontinued.

It was perhaps a fake excuse for a few of us, but no, never it was one major reason.

Perhaps we do need more stars, but the thread does belong to the OP, and it is s/he who needs an answer. OT remarks may be amusing, helpful or simply stupid, but it is the "will and desire" of the OP that needs to be served.

You are justifying what I point as the main problem: that a thread would belong to an OP, when a thread should belong to Apple and to the entire community.

As with Barbara, I don't feel that I am a robot, I answer questions to the best of my ability, if I don't have an answer, I don't post, or if I am in the middle of a conversation and something comes up that I can't deal with, I ask for help from wiser heads.

To Redarm: yes it would be great if we could simply scroll down and see which post provided the answer, but realistically, eight of ten OPs simply mark their thread answered without indicating what the actual solution was or who posted it. In these cases, stars are irrelevant, and I'm afraid these cases are the great majority.

So to Redarm you admit this system doesn't work. I agree with you: this system doesn't work.

No problem 🙂 - the only reason I remember at least some English grammar is because I had to study it extensively for nine years (other countries' school systems are totally different than here in the US) - we not only had to learn to speak the foreign language correctly, but also grammatical composition by having to write essays among other things. But - and I wish a grammarian or someone with a legal background would chime in here to correct me if necessary - I still believe the ToU verbage means that you are only supposed to have one user ID (and account) for Discussions.

+The point is that somebody with a problem looking for an answer, often doesn't want to have to read the whole thread, but would like to jump through answers that were considered helpful or maybe even to the solution itself (if present).+

I agree with you; however, there is an entirely different problem: many posters do not award any points at all (even though their last post is something like "thank you, that did it") and, in many cases, also do not mark the question as answered. Many also never even post back at all, so no one knows if the suggestion/advice helped or not. That seems to be happening more and more, so increasing the availability of points would not solve the point you made (unfortunately).

+I have no doubt she was talking about Ralph (UK) and NOT Ralph (US)...:-)+

Ralph and Ralph,

seriousness aside for a minute.... of course I was referring to both Ralph's 😉 unless, of course, (see above posts) you are one of the users with two accounts - in that case, I was referring to one Ralph.

Oy Axl, please don't append my signature to a statement I never made

So to Redarm you admit this system doesn't work. I agree with you: this system doesn't work.

*In fact, please don't use my signature at all.*

Yes the site belongs to Apple, but practically speaking, the thread belongs to the OP and responses should be made for the OP's benefit. If the rest of the Apple Community benefit from the answers, that's terrific and I applaud it. However, as red_menace pointed out, most people simply post their questions without doing any research and as I and Barbara pointed out, the solution is not always acknowledged by the OP. That is not to say that I don't believe the system works. What is needed is a way of making the current point system more visible to posters and reminding them to award points when justified so others can profit.

I have had a couple of accounts over the years, because I have, in the past, not written down the account name/password, etc. And after a couple years of inactivity end up creating a new account because...

This whole discussion has been interesting, but if you get down to it, maybe we should feel sorry for users who have to try and game the system. Is this the only self-esteem they can out of life? It doesn't take long to catch on, as has been pointed out. I feel sorry for those individuals because they really need to get a life.

These discussion groups are very enjoyable, for the large part. There are some great people on here...I have posted to that effect in the past. There are some real jerks on here. There are some very abusive people, and some who take themselves way too seriously. Gee, that sounds like a cross-section of humanity.

I for one love getting points...but at the same time have many other outlets that give great satisfaction. This is a place I have been coming to more lately because it has been enjoyable, and several of the people have been a lot of fun to interact with.

So, more than one account? Yes, guilty, but not to game the system, due to not taking things that seriously and forgetting what the old account name was.

People, people . . .

No system is perfect.
This one is the best I've seen, and it will most likely be improved on
even more as we go forward.