Why no backlit keyboard on new MacBook Air?

KentMagnuson wrote:

any laptop in this price level should be expected to have a lit keyboard.

Why? Why should any laptop in this price level be expected to have a lit keyboard? See, the deal isn't about price level. You can get a laptop in that price level with a backlit keyboard (an MBP). But you're not qualifying enough here. You should be saying, "Any laptop in that price level which is that thin, that light, and has all the other bells and whistles I expect it to have (camera, certain type of screen, aluminum body, ten hour battery life, SSD....) should have a backlit keyboard."

Kinda makes your statement a little different, doesn't it? Because there are laptops in that price level that do have backlit keyboards--and very few if any of the other things the MBA has--thinness, lightness, battery life. You are making a false equivalency here. If all laptops were exactly the same, then you could say what you could rightly expect at a certain price point. $1000 dollars and you can expect this on all laptops. $2000 and you can expect that on all laptops.

But THIS laptop has different features from other laptops at similar prices. And so you cannot declare that if it costs "that much" it should have a backlit keyboard. It has other stuff that justify the cost. And unless you can tell me for sure--because you worked on the design and in the factory where it was made and know for sure--that it would have been easy, not upped the cost, nor compromised the design, created glitches or heat problems or battery problems to put in a backlit keyboard, you can't say that just because it costs so much it can be expected to have one.

You're not talking about a happy meal here. You don't pay so much and get a toy. You're talking about a delicate machine where every bit of space counts and anything added or subtracted can make a difference. So, sorry, price alone doesn't entitle you to a fancy extra. Whether that fancy extra can be put in without problem or extra cost is what determines it. Luckily for you, Apple does tend to learn how to manage to put more and more into smaller and smaller spaces. Maybe the backlit keyboard will be back on the next update (which might be soon)...but for right now, they're not. And unless you know they can be put in, for sure, without causing any other problems, you can't argue that they should be there just because the computer costs a certain amount of money.

Are you serious, JE13? Sounds like Apple apologism to me. MBAs cost a lot of money when compared to other brands. Of course, compared to MBPs, they might look a little cheaper (well, a full-specced 13" MBA still costs a lot of money...)

Oh, and to add to the previous list of things that were dropped from the original MBA design, I forgot one: ambient light sensor is now gone.

I think people like Kent and I are rather open minded, I mean, I got this 11" MBA as a complement to my 17" MBP, and I end up using it 90% of the time now.

But in low-light environments, or over late evenings when turning down the ambient lighting at home, it does look lame not to have a backlit keyboard (and automatically adjusting ambient light sensor). Just because a lot of people on this thread say it's not a dealbreaker (myself included) doesn't mean it was a poor design decision.

Unless you work in an industrial or hardware design kind of job, and are willing to engage in a solid argument on such design principles, I see no substantiated position as to why it was *not* included in the current gen. I myself work as a human factors scientist, specializing in cognitive ergonomics and engineering psychology, and one thing I've learned from various high tech sector clients is that they *never* want to sacrifice painstakingly acquired system functionalities at the profit of more streamlined ergonomics. Even if the ergonomics would be preferrable somehow. And even if it cuts costs. Only Apple does that.

Yes they innovate, and they're pretty good at dictating to customers what customers should want, instead of the other way around. That's a special kind of relationship indeed. But I'd be darn curious to know how many people they lost when they dropped the Firewire ports on lower-end MBPs a few years ago, for instance. People were screaming murder of these boards. If my business kept telling our defence and aerospace customers that they don't really need this and that functionalities, no matter how cool the rest of the design was, they'd tell us to go find money somewhere else, and good luck with that!

PS: what I just ordered to mitigate the issue on my MBA: https://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/keyboards-mice/d77d/

Still love the MBA, but won't defend it at any or all costs.

Peace out.

Dr Sly wrote:

Are you serious, JE13? Sounds like Apple apologism to me. MBAs cost a lot of money when compared to other brands. Of course, compared to MBPs, they might look a little cheaper (well, a full-specced 13" MBA still costs a lot of money...)

I am serious because it is a bad and fallacious argument. You don't say, "This costs this amount and I can expect X" if X is an extra and not a standard part of package. Once upon a time even pricy cars came with windows you had to roll down manually. You wanted power windows, you paid extra. Then there were certain pricy cars that came with power windows standard. But not ALL cars of that cost came with them standard. Certain expensive sports cars didn't have them because it was much harder (at that time) to put the power windows into those small cars--yet those small cars cost as much as the bigger cars that came with the power windows at that price.

Now power windows are pretty much standard on all new cars. I'm not apologizing for Apple, I'm saying that "it costs this much, I deserve a backlit keyboard!" is a foolish argument. These computers were re-vamped. You have to know why the backlit keyboard was left out before you can argue that "at that price, i should have one!" Prove to me it was left off for no good reason, and I'll agree, at that price you should have one. But if you're wrong, if it was left off because it caused the battery life to shrink to two hours, or made the keyboard too hot to use...well, then for that price you can't have it, can you?

And yes, Apple computers are the Rolls Royce of computers in cost. If you think they're not worth that cost, then you don't buy them. But it's ridiculous to say what extras--and a backlit keyboard is an extra, not standard, not yet--a computer must have if it is a certain price. That certain price may be due to other factors that rule out the extra. And no, I'm no computer engineer and I don't work for Apple, I have no idea how cheap and easy it is to integrate a backlit keyboard into an ultra-thin, aluminum computer. If you do, then please explain to me how cheap and easy it would be to put that backlit keyboard, with no adverse effects, onto this particular computer. That would prove the point. Simply saying "If it costs this much it should have this keyboard" does not prove the point. It's not a good argument.

I find it funny.....

There are 2 sides.....

1) The capitalists, those with the money, who are willing to pay for a better product, create jobs, and demand the latest in technology.

2) And you have the wyners, the ''apologists'', the ''we'll do it next time, even though we could have done it yesterday''. My best friend is one of you guys. He always has an excuse for not going the extra mile. You wanna be lazy and excuse laziness, its ok, but some of us don't have time to lose in our life, some of us are willing to shell the extra buck to have exactly what we need, because we need it to be productive, and productivity is all that counts at the end of the day....

If i could buy another computer brand, i would, but i can't.... no one on earth seems to be working for the consumer....

so i'm stuck complaining about how ''the Rolls Royce of computers'' is missing the air conditionner, and electric windows, while these two components have been around for ages......

I dont care what their marketing strategy is... Me and others are willing to pay for the dam thing (backlit Keyboard), just make it available....

JE13, you have conveniently avoided discussing or adressing any of the points about ergonomics, marketing, and delivering preexisting functionalities I mentioned before. Also, the cost of production arguments should be directed at someone else, as I never said I had any issues with sales price points of Apple products (yes, they're all expensive products, trust me, I get it, I buy Apple stuff for thousands of dollars on a yearly basis).

Like ZfromMontreal just mentioned, there are a few personality types on this board, and I used to 'defend' a lot of strange design choices Apple made in the past (the best argument is always: 'if you don't like it, don't buy it', after all...)

I find myself more critical of Apple as years pass, and methinks that it's an entirely rational choice. I'd say 'H ell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned' is too radical on the other side of the divide, so I won't go there.

When the backlit keyboard eventually comes back to the MBA, and it probably will, they will sell it as an extra feature in a list of pros to obtain such device. Never mind the fact that it was previously present, then absent, as a feature. This is the greatness of the Apple effect. Sell you stuff you should have had for a long time, and pretend like it's now a god-sent gift to mankind.

Do you remember cut-and-paste on the iPhone? A technology which had been present on computers as far as the early 80s on computing devices of far inferior capabilities? When it finally came to the iPhone, people were hypnotized, mesmerized. It was like an epiphany. "Thank you Steve Jobs!"

Right.

I have no idea why Apple left the lights off, but that sort of decision is often made in the design business to satisfy a group of opposing goals. In this example, was there a design goal based on the MBA's size and weight? I'd be surprised if there was not. Was there a design goal based on battery life? Again, I'd be surprised if not. Now, given the constraints on how to fit the most battery time in the limited size case, "nice to have" power/space users such as key backlighting and DVD drives would be among the first to go on my design.

JMTCW

r_raleigh,

besides a 2010 17" MBP and a late 2010 11" MBA, I have a pre-2010 MBA (13" of course) right beside me, used by my fiancée, and she's got a backlight on it... How was/is the preexisting MBA design somehow compromised in terms of space, dimensions, batteray capacity, etc.? It's a different unibody chassis, that's it!

Even the specs of her MBA are actually *better* than all but the the top level, most recent MBA (in fact, the innards of the MBA have undergone... what changes exactly?) If anything, there is more space in newer MBAs, given that it uses Flash memory as opposed to the custom SSD drive from 2008-2010.

I think it's just sad that it's gone. Of course, it never said 'Pro' on it, only 'Air'...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-11-13inch-reviewed

Most likely a design issue/decision. They had to drop the backlight keyboard to gain something more significant and that was their decision. We are afterall, still bound by the laws of physics.

The first gen macbook air pales in performance compared to the 2nd gen. First gen also generated much more heat.

The 2nd gen allowed for additional 4gig of memory which would obviously take up more space but allows for more programs to run, as well as much better performance. The light obviously would use up more power as well, and as a consequence the laptop would generate more heat.

So backlight keyboard vs better performance, less heat, more battery life.... I'd choose.. well you know.

Apologies, but since when do Synchronous Dynamic Random Access Memory DDR3 modules take more space if they double in capacity?

SDRAM modules don't occupy more real estate whether the capacity is 2,4, or 8 GB...

Hear, hear, the rumor mill just released an info that next gen MBAs are coming in June. Sandy Bridge and Thunderfarts! Who knows, maybe an awesome, magical and revolutionary feature such as... a backlit keyboard!

I used memory module as one example to point out that there may be other reasons as to why they needed to leave it out.

If you're so ****** off about it, have a chat with their engineers instead of complaining in the forum.

rsannie, I'm sure you had good intentions, and FYI I am not ****** at anyone. I *own* a 11" MBA and love it. Still blows that there's no baclkit keyboard.

We get it, we're not going to have one anyways. Some Apple fans came here to discuss how much of an impact it had on their usage, appreciation, and respect for the design. Yet some other Apple fans came here to insult them, make crazy apologetic claims on behalf of Apple, et caetera.

Exact same thing as 'groupthink', polarizing people in red vs blue team, or us vs them. I don't buy into this nonsense.

My point is that was a weak move, and bound to make some people unhappy. For the rest, sounds like no biggie. Good for them! Do voice your opinion about the matter, it's an open forum.

Sorry if I angered you. Perhaps you were using your RAM example as some figurative device (like an analogy). I mistook it for an unsound argument, because the conclusion does not follow from the premises. At least one premise was false (that RAM takes more space the more you have of it).

It's all speculation. And Apple does a wonderful job at not explaining design rationales for things that *don't* work for them (or for us). They just do what they want. Fair enough! That's a though stance. Stockholders love attitude. And there's nothing that isn't magical and revolutionary when it comes out of Saint Jobs' mouth. As I mentioned before, when he announced the magical and revolutionart, godsent essence of the new MBA last Fall, he said it was a mix between an iPad and an Apple laptop. He went on to list all the awesomeness of it in details (thinner, lighter, redesigned, tougher frame, more ports, more resolution, more options, etc.)

Methinks he forgot to mention: 'oh snap, all of the above, but screw that backlit keyboard, ambient light sensor, and IR receiver. Who needs that anyways? I don't! So it's gone. But look at the cool new hinge!'...

"Apple does a wonderful job at not explaining design rationales for things that *don't* work for them (or for us)....That's a though stance."

I'm unaware of any company that explain its "design rationales for things". Perhaps you could enlighten me. The Apple designers discuss everything at length. This thread has speculated that the decision is based on: economics, oversight, or battery life. Perhaps, there's at least one other consideration, and that is market segmentation. If a backlit keyboard is an essential requirement, the MBA is not for you. A "though stance", indeed.

Just curious if anybody knows for sure what's involved in retrofitting the older backlit keyboard into a late 2010 13" model?

Wow. You're a tool.

Hidden behind all of your "I do this and I do that" attempts at intimidation though mindless bragging, is simply a case of an entitled child who couldn't get what he wants and thinks that Apple owes him something because he spends thousands of dollars. Boo hoo.

Apple is a company. They don't have to explain themselves to you. Also, you are in the minority. 99% of all people buying Macbook Airs will would never use a backlit keyboard and won't ever notice it's missing. If you're sad or gloomy about the lack of backlighting, your best recourse is to take your big spending ways and toss them to a company who will coddle you and tell you it loves you and hold your hand while you wipe your bottom with hundred dollar bills.

No one is apologizing for Apple. But they're a company. The truth here is that it was likely a way to cut overhead. The same way they cut it on the iPhones by no longer supplying a dock with the phones like they did in the original model. Apple has a job: to make money. They don't care about you. They made you angry but you STILL bought the product.

Who's the bigger moron here?

Why, thank you for the kind words, Hutch! You give us such as warm example of being part of a loving community, and your arguments are fair and sound. You are impartial to the nth degree, and your words of wisdom shall be foreverer remebered. I wish I had more friends like you. I'm sure you have plenty of them, with such a great attitude, and aptitude for words. At no point did it come across that you might be an Apple apologist or zealot, you sound like someone who should one day have an important job with a position of authority. You make people who have been commenting on the pros and cons of Apple products in an open forum community like they feel right at home, part of something, truly. The anonymity of these boards keeps you humble and honorable, against all odds. It sounds like you would tell me the very same thing with the very same words, were you to be face to face with me.

I will certainly commit more time to this thread and those discussions, I appreciate the level-headednes you have displayed. You are civil and appreciative of other people's opinion and arguments. Your own arguments are flawless, supported by weighted words and well-thought premises, based on facts and empirical evidence. That 99% part of the people who shall not miss backlit keyboards is something I should have not missed from the community feedback, or the internal Apple memo you clearly had accessed to, being special the way you are.

You really set an example right there. Now I feel like I should put more effort in helping out people you have problems or questions in such forums. I cannot wait for another person to question Apple's preternatural predisposition to answer every user's wishes, I shall remind them of how Apple can do no wrong.

Hutch, you're a real American hero (I suppose you're either American, or perhaps a fellow Canadian from the English side of the country, because of your mastery of Shakespeare's language, and your Victorian inclinations to flattery and gallantry?)

If ever you come across more human factors scientists like me, with humble backgrounds such as having doctoral degrees in industrial and engineering psychology, who specialize in cognitive ergonomics, usability engineering, and work for billion dollars clients from various industries, yet who may alas have a different opinion than yours on design choices made by Apple, do tell them how it's done! I'm sure they'll remember you forever as the person who had it all figured out.

Let it be said, one can learn from Hutch.

Cordially,

Dr Sly