Configuring WDS w/ Airport Extreme Dual-Band 802.11n & Express 802.11g

Hello broadlake. Welcome to the Apple Discussions!

One caveat with your current "mix" of AirPorts. When using a combination of "n" and non-"n" base station, you can only configure them for the older "static" WDS. In this type of WDS, the base station will only operate in the 802.11g radio mode ... so you will lose all advantages of an "n" network. Second, for each base station added, the overall bandwidth is cut in half ... so instead of a maximum of 54 Mbps, you will be getting more like 25-27 Mbps depending on how far away the 802.11b/g AirPort Express Base Station (AX) is from the 802.11n AirPort Extreme Base Station (AEBSn) and what types of Wi-Fi interference is present.

If you still wish to pursue configuring your base stations, I will be happy to provide the step-by-step instructions.

Informative post, - the 2.4/5.0Ghz Apple ID matter is really confusing!

I lost hours on that simple issue, - why the **** has Apple used here the "exotic" 5.0Ghz MAC address as standard Apple ID?

When I look at Apple's 5Ghz implementation / usability, - it seems that its more a marketing thing than a real feature: The performance is comparing to my dual radio 802.11n 3Com AP very very poor.

Apple seems to has NOT implemented any essential 5Ghz (802.11h) WLAN feature like DFS (Dynamic Frequency Selection) or TPC (Transmit Power Control). Particularly the TPC function can greatly improve the range of 5Ghz WIFI by allowing more signal power (up to 1000mW compared to only 100mW).

And why I have only a few channels at the 5Ghz band? For US users that may be the prescription, but here in Europe I should have up to 24 channels... 😟

Tesserax: I'm losing my mind and I'm desperate. I've been at this for HOURS.

It's too long to type now, but it used to work until I upgraded the Extreme to a dual extreme:

Cable Modem ----ETHERNET----Extreme---WIRELESS----Express----ETHERNET----TivoPremiere


It was done via WDS, and I have a second Tivo that is in via Wireless and can only handle WEP passwords, so I was hoping the dualband could be set up to accomodate both...

As I've now seen for myself and read everywhere...WDS is a no-go now.

I've tried 97 ways to make this work and I'm going insane. Help. Please. I'll give you my phone number. Email me.

Stoid@me.com

PLEASE!

(I can be very clear and precise in explaining what I've done and not done, I jsut can't type it all out coherently, and I think I've read "designing Aireport Netowrks" cover to cover. Which is useless, because it's obsolete. I'm very upset with Apple right now- UPDATE THE **** DOCUMENTATION SO IT MATCHES YOUR EQUIPMENT AND SOFTWARE! ) Sorry.

Are both your Extreme and Express base station the 802.11n model? Will you only be using the Express to provide wired connectivity to the TiVo or do you also want it to extend the wireless range of the Extreme?

My Express is the A1264 802.11n model. My Extreme is the A1354 model.

The most crucial issue is the the Tivo, because the Premiere only works with Ethernet (I dont' have and wont' buy the upgraded wireless doohickey), but of course I would prefer that the Express also act to extend the signal, and I particularly want it do so using WEP access (or nothing, see below), since I have a second Tivo which ONLY works wirelessly and which ONLY works using WEP, not WPA.

Since there were so many different issues and needs going on, I was excited about the Dual Band because it meant I could potentially get 5G speeds for my iPad and perhaps the Tivo Premiere connection, while allowing a completely separate band for the OLD Tivo.

The other option I've been trying out (to accommodate the Tivo2 that can't handle WEP) is having no security, but making the networks hidden.

A third option I tried to make work was to create a "guest network" for just the Tivo2.

But what I'm finding out (it's what I always struggle with...networking is a nightmare.) is that if you take one from Column A, Column B disappears, so to speak.

The way it used to work on the non-dual band Extreme was as I mapped above, and the Tivo2 and my iPad used the wireless signal with no problem while the Express was Ethernet connected to the TivoPremiere, but it did so using WDS, which doesn't even seem to exist as a possibility, forget teh fact that it undermines the speed boost (so I read)

I've frankly never been able to understand the differences between the various modes and structures, and believe it or not I'm very smart and very comfortable with computers and Macs, having worked on them for 25 years.

And one of the biggest reasons I've had such a hard time is because of the many times that I have updated after making changes, Airport Utility tells me it worked, but nothing happens and then after too much frustration I end up unplugging and shutting down every single piece of equipment and rebooting everything and then it DOES work. Sometimes. But I can't be doing that every time I make one tweak, I'll go insane!

And the number of pin-resets I've done on the Express, the Dual band, and even the cable modem would make your head spin!

So there's my story. Kinda. Does it make any sense? At least in terms of my goals?

Your help is more appreciated than you can imagine.

Additional information:

Both are Version 7.5.2

Currently, the Extreme is set up:

Create a Wireless Network
Name: mynetworkname
Security: WEP
Connect using Ethernet


Express:
Join A wireless network
Name: mynetworkname
WEP 40 bit
Connect using wireless network

Every time I disconnect the Express to plug it in where I need it, it disappears from Airport Utility, although the light stays green. But it doesn't provide any connectivity.

But this is just how things are this minute, after a full day of messing with it. As I think I've made clear, I've tried dozens of settings.

Ok, thanks. Just understand that your configuration, and its solution is different from that of the OP's and it wouldn't be fair to go into too much detail at this point.

What I can tell you is that you have two basic options:

1) Configure the AirPort Express as a wireless Ethernet bridge (ProxySTA), which would allow the TiVo to get an Ethernet connection, or
2) Configure the AirPorts for a dynamic WDS.

One issue to contend with is if you really have a requirement for WEP, the Transitional WEP that comes with the 802.11n modes may not work. That would mean that you would need to configure your network to use one of the non-"n" modes to access either the 40- or 128-bit WEP options. This, of course, would pretty much make your 802.11n investment useless.

Please start a new post. You can cut an paste what you just provided so that we can help you will a solution specifically for your networking requirements. Thx!

Hello everyone,

I would like to raise my hand regarding this situation.

I have a 802.11n Airport Extreme and 802.11n Airport Express. The Extreme is in the garage with the express in the house. I've tried extending the network from the Extreme to the Express. That worked for a while then the network was just unusable. Now I'm trying the WDS feature and it seems my connection isn't ideal but better, the best transmit rate isn't the best.

Can someone suggest a scenario where throughput and coverage are optimal?


Thanks,
Darryl

You are probably getting a bit better range with the WDS setup because it operates only at "g" level wireless, even if you have "n" wireless routers. It's no secret that lower frequency "g" signals are stronger than higher frequency "n" signals, so the "g" wireless waves penetrate obstructions a bit more effectively and work over distance a bit better.

The big downside to WDS is that you lose half of the bandwidth on the entire network. So,"g" having a normal maximum speed of 54 Mbps, can only be 26 Mbps maximum in a WDS setup. That's 5 times slower than "n" wireless, which is why things are slow for you now.

I guess you could say that with wireless, there is always going to be a compromise. Or, another way of saying the same thing is that in order to gain something, you have to give up something else.

Higher speeds at higher frequencies means less range. Better range with lower frequencies means less signal speed. Take your pick.

Solutions? If you must use wireless, if possible use the "extend" setup and try to minimize the distance and/or obstructions between the AirPort Extreme and Express. That will at least maintain some speed and throughput on the network. Avoid WDS if at all possible.

Can someone suggest a scenario where throughput and coverage are optimal?

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but the "best" solution is to always connect the devices using an ethernet cable, which will maintain maximum bandwidth and throughput on the network. There's virtually no signal loss and you don't have to worry about wireless interference issues either.

Can't run the ethernet cable? Take a look at a pair of ethernet powerline adapters to send a pseudo ethernet signal over the AC powerline. It should work if everything is on the same master electrical circuit. A friend uses a pair of these devices to send a signal from his house to detached workshop about 75 feet away. Works great. Tons better than wireless.

But I say should because you never really know until you try, so it would be a good idea to understand the store's return/credit policy before you spend the additional $100-150 on a pair of ethernet powerline adapters.

Is the "extend network" feature of the newer hardware just a simplified WDS? I guess what I am asking is with the "extend network" feature of the newer hardware do you still see this same performance degradation?

I guess what I am asking is with the "extend network" feature of the newer hardware do you still see this same performance degradation?

No, the "extend a wireless network" setup maintains "n" wireless speeds throughout the network. There is a slight bandwidth loss with each "remote" in the "extend" setup...about 10-15%.

So, with a main base station and 2 remotes, you would have "n" speeds and 70-80% of bandwidth on the network will be maintained.

The same setup with WDS would produce "g" speeds (even if you have "n" devices), and you would only have 25% of the original bandwidth left. Tremendous loss with WDS.