Final Cut Pro X - Import AVCHD?

Thanks Gene, that's very helpful feedback.

To Gene: I'm hoping that Vitaly will hack the GH2 so it can do 60p! :-) At the moment if there's a lot of motion I'd tend to use 720p. If I've shot 1080i60 and want to make it 1080p60 to get rid of the interlacing artefacts, then the workflow is fairly simple:

- cmd-E export my finished job to ProRes/ProResHQ

- put this into JES Deinterlacer, under Project choose Both fields, Adaptive and Filter Chroma (and maybe Local depending on whether or not you think it helps); under Output choose Direct and ProRes/ProResHQ. Click OK and

- wait a while patiently.... :-)

- when done, send to Compressor for final version.

I can't say this approach does anything magical if the source material isn't much good, but I bet you'd be pleasantly surprised at the results. PS I sold my Canon DSLR for the GH2 and am much happier with a lighter more compact unit. It's a shame there's no 60p option at the moment.

To Aquarius: Maybe later after you're done experimenting, please let me know if you could see much of a difference between the different workflows. Also what the source material was... With AVCHD the bitrate has a lot to do with the input file quality. With my GH2, 17Mbps is as high as it gets for 720p60 or 1080i60, but it can do 23Mbps at 1080p24, which is a lot of data for not-so-many frames per second, so each frame really does look astonishingly good, even with lots of detail and movement in the scene. The GH-2 sensor can definitely generate 60p, but maybe the CPU isn't fast enough. In some cameras, with limited data transfer rates, shooting 60p doesn't always result in better quality images than 60i; for example, 1080p60 at 17Mbps wouldn't necessarily show any better video quality than 1080i60 or 702p60 at the same 17Mbps. So long as there is little inter-frame variation, ie not much movement, the 1080p60 will be better, but if there is movement of detailed material, there will be more blocking artefacts in 1080p60 than in say 1080i60 or 720p60. For 1080p60 to really look great with movement and moving detail, one probably needs data rates > 30 Mbps.

Chris.

Thanks for the breakdown Chris. I'm going to try this workflow since it's much less taxing to edit 60i than 60p.

I bought the 7D in hopes I could have the "best of both worlds". High Quality Photo w/ High Quality Video. The thing I always got frustrated with was the fact it didn't have autofocus in video mode. Does the GH2? Would you say you have the best of both worlds with your GH2? I'm happy to compromise the 1080p60 on the TM and 8FPS Raw in the 7D for 1 unit that does Photo and Video "well" w/ autofocus video mode.

Chris & Aquarius & Rob

The TM900 Records 1080p60 at 28MBPS VBR. I've seen it hit as high as 32MBPS before.

Gene

Gene:

I purchased a TM900 and am trying to convert video from to be able to watch it in 1080p and at 60fps. I purchased Aunsoft Video Converter and FCP X. I imported the .mts files and select Apple Pro Res 422, 1920 X 1080 and 60fps. It appears to have done the conversion but when I open it in FCP X I only hear the footage, there is no video. Any suggestions?

Ray

Ray,

I'm sorry, but I can't help you. I don't use Aunsoft Converter. I purchased ClipWrap after testing it for about a week. My workflow is:

- Create & Save Disk Image of SD card (or internal memory of TM900) on my Storage drive

- Open Disk Image, Open ClipWrap and convert the files just by re-wrapping video and converting to LPCM (a must if you're recording 5.1). I create a temp folder on a scratch disk

- I close the Clipwrap, Open FCPX and then ingest using "create proxy" or "creat optimized" depending on which computer i'm editing with (MPB 2.66 i7 w/8GB Ram for Proxy, MacPro 2.8 Octo w/ 10GB Ram for Optimized.

- Once that import is complete, I can edit.

It's not ideal for me since the main reason I wanted FCPX was because it does "native" AVCHD. This is clearly not the case for the TM900 when shooting in 60p / 5.1 (note: it doesn't do native even if just using either 60p OR 5.1). The result quality for me totally outweighs the added steps and storage it takes to edit 60p.

I hope this helps! Chris and the rest of the crew on this thread has helped me quite a lot.

I hope you find the same satisfaction.

Best,

Gene

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest as this is mostly new for me and it is a huge help.

My situation is I recently switched to AVCHD format and it sounds like others here I was waiting for FCPX to come out which would allow me to edit on it natively without quality loss.

In the mean time I purchased Clipwrap and having only been using it only to view my underwater video in quicktime to see what might be worth importing.

I have a Sony CX550v which shoots 1080i/60 @ 24 Mbps.

After reading this I am unsure of any advantage to not converting it to ProRess first then importing.

From a highest possible quality standpoint (bitrate is still confusing) should I use Clipwrap to convert to ProRess HQ from my portable hard drive than import that into FCPX?

I think (if I have this right) I could edit in proxy mode for speed then export the final project at full quality by using the project settings?

The workflow described above sounds great but are there any considerations for my camera, as in the quality would not make a difference

Some clips looked choppy, so I am hoping the deinterlacing will help.

Any advice would be appreciated, Chris's step by step instruction here is great.

John

Hi John,

Chris will probably give you more comprehensive and well structured answers to all the issues you raise. On using ProRes HQ, a lot of people will say it's overkill. I don't and since I have to transcode my AVCHD 1080p50 MTS files with third party software first before importing them to FCPX anyway, I might as well do it in ProRes HQ. I'm not sure if upon ingesting and transcoding 1080i60 footage, when create optimized media has been selected, one can choose ProRes HQ as a format. I haven't seen it. Only when setting up a project I've seen it as an option for the rendered files. So I think if you want to use ProRes HQ you will probably have to transcode your files with some other application before importing.

Cheers

Thanks Aquarius. I've read here;

If the AVCHD files are imported and edited 'as is' (ie without creating and editing a Separate ProRes version) then you're working on the original h.264 mts data and there is no change in the image quality.

If you 'convert' them on import or externally to some other file format before placing those files on the timeline there may be some loss of quality, depending on the nature of that conversion. Obviously you'd convert them to a minimum loss format, eg ProRes, and the format would be fast to edit (eg ProRes).

The benefit in converting to a ProRes format on import (there is a simple checkbox that does all this in the background for you), rather than working in the timeline with (say) MTS originals, is that ProRes versions are easy for the computer to decode and to display, so scrubbing, playback and editing requires much less processing and is much slicker. The downside is that it takes time to do the conversion (even if it is done in the background now), disk space requirements go up (and currently it's not so easy to tell FPCX where to put these large intermediary files), and there may be some loss in image quality (though with ProRes formats I see no problem at all).

In contrast, working with unconverted AVCHD (h.264 / MTS) formats ensures no image quality loss and minimises disk utilisation, if you can tolerate some delays in display, slower renders, etc.

Your choice may depend a bit on whether you have lots of disk space or a fast CPU/GPU (or both).

You'd have to get advice from elsewhere on this forum as to the extent to which the ProRes intermediary is associated with IQ loss. My understanding is that it is minimal.

FCPX does a great job in relation to color management, intermediary file options, and gives us the ability to edit the original unconverted AVCHD material if we like - these are all features I value greatly.

Chris.

that FCPX would natively import and work with my AVCHD but when I tried to import last night from the external hard drive (where I have the original material from the camera stored) the import box was grayed out.

I thought it meant I might have to convert it first but I am probably doing something wrong.

I already purchased Clipwrap but only to open and view my clips so far.

Will try again tonight to see if I can figure what I am doing wrong.

Appreciate it. John

Greetings all:

Yes: I am new here, but share some of your concerns, re: FCProX, and in particular issues with SONY camera/native import to FCProX from high-speed SD cards - as the files do not directly import, as well all know (though I must share this: I had a weird experience, intially where despite all ODDs and claims to the contrary - Final Cut Pro X actually saw - ONE TIME ONLY - my SONY cam card and imported 8 clips (shot in both 1080i60 & 1080p60)...but that occurred once - and never was able to replicated. Even talking to SONY tech support about the general issue (and who were wonderful but had no immediate solution for me.....) - said, "that should NOT have happened with this new FSU100 SONY cam and FCProX, as no MTS/FCProX compatible "converter" has been produced by SONY for that specific cam and FCProX"... (yet, at least).

So, that said - here is what I've done so far (besides: calling Apple FCProX support earlier tonight...the guy on the phone was very nice and understanding and knowledgable): he understood my concerns and problem(s) right away - and he gave me a clever, interesting workaround / idea he hoped might work so FCProX would see the AVCHD/MTS files directly and import them directly inot FCProX...but alas it *didn't work* after all).

In order of events:

1. I just bought the noted new camera model - a SONY and am still very much getting to know it: the very high quality FS100U (max record format 1080p60 - and this cam - GOOD GOD! - the film quality is stunning - even in extremely low light). I do love this cam....and it's "low-cost" vs. quality (compared to similar cams SONY and others were offering a year ago). But there is that unexpected, noted file transfer/import problem with the AVCHD format to FCProX...

2. I purchased Final Cut Pro X the night it was released (June 21): despite a few *obvious missing pieces/definite problems* ...I think the product IS a positive step up for Apple/Final Cut user - IN THE LONG RUN - despite not importing directly any MTS/AVCHD, or opening up older FC projects. You CAN get precision editing out of it (and much more!) at blazingly fast speed - and in spectacular quality, depending on your output settings. I really do like FCProX after all....it has so many more features than first meeets the eye. I just plyed with it alot and found them, I have the manuals for it and Compresor and Motion, now...and have yet to even open them up for help and guidance! And I'm still quite new to it myself...a babe in the woods, comparitively to other editors.

- Through a Google search, yesterday I found a *32-bit* middleware software program (Aunsoft.com - $50/US) and downloaded the trial first. It DID encode the MTS/AVCHD files on the SONY high-speed card - shot in 1080p60 - to .MOV format and then I was inded able to get those new .MOVs right into FCProX. So I bought the official version. But being 32-bit architecture...cannot take advantage of my core5 Intel processors/render speeds.

The drawback with this AUsoft product is, as you all will have guessd - the workflow SLOWDOWN: the re-encoding of the MTS/AVCHD w/the 32-bit Aunsoft middleware solution is so slow I could have died. I mean...1 minute of film took 20+ minutes to convert (at no-loss of quality, however, thankfully) to .MOV - and the re-encoded file size for that one minute of original footage was over 1 Gb in size! Imagine pre-converting a 30 minute clip....and how long that would take?

Do any of you out there:

A: use the new SONY FSU100 cam at all, yet?

B. and use it or a similar SONY cam together with Final Cut ANYTHING (ProX preferrably)? You might know a workaround...? Other solution for me?

C. And, does anyone know of any TRUE *64-bit* compatible Mac / SONY cam/ AVCHD/MTS "converter" that is FAST: e.g. - something, some software or plug-in or whatever that WILL be truly a 64-bit architecture for the Mac to help me convert these **** MTS/AVCHD files and speed along my workflow, until SONY (or, less likely, Apple) eventually (I hope) comes up with a solution for [this] SONY cam w/AVCHD/MTS file format to work seamlessly with FCProX? Meaning: best workflow coupled with "problemless" input right from the SD card/iMac into FCProX?

=> BEWARE: there are companies out there advertising AVCHD/MTS converters as 64-bit - but they are NOT. They are 32-bit. I I downloaded a few more trial copies from other makers of similar converters and saw, right away: they are *really just 32-bit* (despit their false advertising to the contrary).

ALSO:

=> WARNING: DO NOT buy an Atomos NINJA EVF right now...I bought one to go with the FSU100...and so I used it with my new SONY - and a [newish] Canon HDV Vixia 40. ONLY interlaced footage can be recorded using the NINJA...so...NOT GOOD, folks..not good).it does NOT record anything at "p" (progressive) format. It's full, false advertising. They're technically deceiving the public in their literature about their device's capabilities. It only records in 1080i, and after that - it literally shuts off completely when one tries to record to it from any other settings (and I spoke to the President of Atomos, and to the CEO...who made me a bucnch of promises...but I decided to play it safe)... I sent it back. If you want on of these EVFs - get another brand be sure it does what thehy claim) or wait for ATOMOS to get the *very MANY kinks* that product has in it before you blow $1000 - and more (it has no HD, BTW, included with the NINJA and those must be bought separately, too..I bought 2 drives at over $500 cost). That was a huge disappointment all unto itself....and a huge waste of my time.

From this forum I hope to share what I discover that might help any of you out there; and to get from some of you other, better ideas (or at least ideas about another software /"middleware" solution that IS truly 64-bit in design for much faster re-encoding of the original, currently non-directly-importable MTS/AVCHD files written to the SONY card and then straight into FCProX, giving me the fastest workflow)

Many thanks in advance!

Mike from Philadelphia

Gene:

Thank you so much for getting back to me. I purchased Clipwrap and was able to edit the files in FCPX. I never used either program before so this is a new, albeit exciting and interesting experience for me. I will continue to read these discussions and others that relate to the TM900 and FCPX. Thank you again.

Ray

John -

If your original AVCHD files are in the original folder format (ie an exact copy of the structure on the camera) then you should be able to go import from camera > open camera archive. Then FCPX lets you select which clips you want to import kind of like iMovie. FCPX can do this from the folder structure of most cameras, but not all. If you've not retained the folder structure, and only saved the MTS files from out of that structure, then you have two choices. Either:

- re-generate the folder structure around the MTS files using something like Revolver HD or ClipWrap (using it without conversion and then use import from camera archive on the newly created folder, (note that this will not work for 1080p50/60 files) or

- transcode the MTS to ProRes or ProResHQ (using clipwrap with conversion or others) and import the resulting m4v or mov files into FCPX using Import file (works for 1080p50 or 1080p60). This approach can also work for AVCHD folder structures that for some reason won't appear in the import > camera archive type way of doing things.

You should be able to import your native 1080i60 AVCHD files into FCPX. Try the hints in this thread. This ensures the highest quality, but editing native AVCHD is tough. Transcoding to ProResHQ prior to import is essentially lossless and is the next highest quality option.

Your biggest issue will be deinterlacing. You may get better results in 720p60 because there will be no interlacing artefacts to get rid of. Otherwise you could export to ProResHQ and use JES deinterlacer on the export file, or export to Compressor and try an adaptive algorithm in compressor, as described previously.

Remember that on export you should choose the highest quality setting if you want the highest quality export.

To Mike

Slow down a bit and read *all* the posts in this discussion. They explain how to make it work.

Also, tell us exactly which camera you're using. I can't google an FSU100.

Also tell us which video formats work and which don't. And exactly what steps you've taken to import your clips.

Otherwise we really can't help.

Some suggestions.

First, is the camera specified as working with FCPX? If it is, understand that despite being supported, you cannot import 1080p60 via the 'import from camera archive' route at this point in time.

Second, you usually can't import clips from a camera archive that includes both 1080p60 along with clips in other formats.

Third, try to walk before you run. Try a clean memory card and record ONE BRIEF CLIP in a simple format like 720p. Put just one clip on the card.

Then see if you can import that clip using import from camera > from camera archive. If you can see the camera archive at that point, then you can ingest the native H264 files from within the MTS file from within the AVCHD file structure. This native H264 clip will appear as original media into an FCPX event. QuickTime should be able to play this fine.

If you can't see the camera archive in the import from camera > from camera archive thing, even with just one 720p60 clip on a clean card, then the AVCHD structure on the card must be unsupported by Apple. If the camera is listed as supported, then either you are doing something really basic that's wrong, like a dud cable, or you should file a bug report.

If the folder structure just won't import, then try creating a revolver HD camera archive around a saved MTS file eg 720p60 MTS copied from out of an AVCHD folders. Confirm the file format of this clip in VLC which can play MTS. Get revolver to build a legit AVCHD folder around it. Confirm you can import your file from within this folder via camera archive. This demonstrates that the problem you're having is with the folder structure of your camera, not the files themselves.

If you get this approach to work you can try with revolver HD folders containing other kinds MTS files, eg 1080i60 or even 1080p60, and find what works and what doesn't.

If you can figure out a way to get FCPX to ingest the native files, then clicking optimise media will use apple's 64 bit transcoding engine to create ProRes.

If it seems completely impossible, having tried all the above, to get anything to import as native H264, then get clipwrap to transcode a 720p60 MTS to ProRes and import that. Then try again with 1080i60 and 1080p60. You can try Aunsoft if you like. But, believe me, you will find a way to get it to work.

The main thing for you to do is to walk before you try to run, keep things very simple (one brief clip on a cleanly erased memory card, start with 720p60 that everyone can easily import), and logically move through the options. I'm sure you'll find a workflow that is just fine.

Good luck, and please read all the other posts....

Chris.

Hi Chris-

I'm walking alright: and thanks for the response...I have already done MOST of what you suggested (except shoot at 720p). I've tried every setting/conversion in Clipware.

Here is where I am since I first posted (sorry it was so long...):

1. I downloaded Clipwrap on suggestions by folks on this forum. I am not getting any usable results with Clipwrap at this point, sadly...

2. I am using:

- a new SONY cam: FS100U (shooting/recording in AVCHD format:1080p60) - no - it's not on Apple's recommended list - it's so new...

- am trying to get footage from SD memory card (or re-created disk image from card) into Final Cut Pro X by using Clipwrap (I've tried every possible setting in the free download/demo)

- for conversion and import into FCProX the "Rewrap (don't alter video samples)" setting PARTIALLY works: just gives me AUDIO - no VIDEO...every other setting does not work at all.

- so that's as far as I've gotten to import into FCProX - and, as noted, only a partial conversion (just audio).

3. NOTE: with the only partially-working seeting through Clipware (above) - when played in QT, the playback window is the proper, full size....(1920 x 1080) but is just BLACK - and again: audio yes/video no...] And Final Cut Pro X will import it - but with the same prolblem...audio yes/no video...

Any thoughts...? I've tried just about everything....earlier, I bought another Mac-based (only 32-bit) program, Aunsoft - that *does*convert the MTS/AVCHD files from the SONY SD card....but SLOWER THAN MOLASSES. It's so bad...speedwise. It's a terrible slowdown in workflow...

Any more advice?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

Didn't I make it clear enough? You can import rewrapped 1080p60 MTS files into FCPX but you will get only ever get audio and black video. This happens to everyone who tries this regardless of camera. To import 1080p60 MTS files you must first transcode to ProRes. Clipwrap can do this but it is not the sAme as rewrapping. It is transcoding. The output after transcoding should be ProRes not h264. There are other transcoding options besides clipwrap that I've mentioned earlier.

Sounds like you are NOT transcoding, just rewrapping, and that won't work.

Please try with 720p60 on a freshly formatted memory card. That's the first thing to do. If you haven't done this - and it must be a newly formatted card with nothing other than one clip - then you really must try this before anything else.

Chris - thanks again for the response...

I do not think you mentioned "audio yes/BLACK SCREEN/video - NO (that everyone gets that)...at least if you did, then I apologize for missing that. I cannot POSSIBLY read every single post on here. I signed up for with this forum about 12 hours ago (?) - and I've recceived dozens of emails re: FCProX....I am going to have to turn off the email auto notification, unfortunately.....but will stay on the forum and check for helpful hints. Believe me - I have read at least 2 dozen.....the more recent ones....that "seem" to apply more closely to my problem area. None except yours even begin to address it, though.

About Clipware...when you say TRANSCODE - I know what you mean. But how do I do that in the free demo version of Clipware? I see multiple options in the pop-up window at bottom.....all of them do nothing - except the "rewrapping" (default) setting...I also noticed that since introducing the file I re-wrapped in Clipware to FCProX, it forced all of my exisiting files (already successfully gotten into FCPX one way or another) to have a blue thumbnail instead of a regular still-imageposter frame to represent them in the library of clips by date. I got that turned around...but not without some diddling....and it didn't remember after I quit FCPX and went back to it later...though I got the clips/thumbnails to return to poster frames once again.

So - how *do* I transcode in Clipware? There is nothing in their help files aout that, per se...not using that word at least.

I will try 720p60 on a new card...I told you I did that with the 1080p60 setting with no luck...but I will do as you say with 720p60.

If you could let me know more details about "transcoding process or settings" via Clipware, I'd appreciate it. If it means buying the full version to do that...I don't want to spend the $$ until I know it will really work for me. Here. on this iMac/Intel core i5 - I'm sure you understand. IF I can do it in the demo - kindly advise the process.

Thanks,

Mike