Wifi Constantly Dropping in Lion

Joseph Kriz wrote:

sgt_harris,

I agree...

We all know there is some problem with Lion and some wireless routers...

I certianly am not suggesting everyone run out and buy a new router...

Apple apparently made some changes..

Are they using newer technology now in this system that is causing problems with older wireless technology that some routers may have?

I don't know, I don't work for Apple and they aren't telling....

Maybe some of the older routers need a firmware update and those companies may be working on just that?

Something like Firewire 400 cables that won't plug into the new computers with a Firewire 800 connection...

You would either need an adapter, a new cable, or a new device that has Firewire 800...

Some people still refuse to list what wireless router they are using...

As you mention, people in the UK or other places around the world are using different devices...

As I mentioned before, I am using a 4th Generation Airport Extreme.

I have never owned any other brand of wireless router.

There are other good brands out there but it seems that Lion may not like some of them at this time.

I am not saying this with an hostility mean towards you, but if this was the case, don't you think there should have been a warning for people buying or updating to Lion? This isn't not a solution, it's an excuse. And back to common sense, every other device I have ever had in my house (dozens of devices) have no problem with my router or network. There is no an issue with the router. There is an issue with Lion using it. The idea that a hardware solution of any kind would be REQUIRED to fix the issue seems ridiculous.

I don't list the router brand because I have listed it in other posts. Tons of people have. There is no common thread that has been shown between router brands and the issue. Only Lion not working with them.

wbowles,

Just an FYI, I have an Apple router, two in fact, and Lion has a problem with them. Hope that it makes you feel

somewhat better that you don't have to drink the whole glass of Apple Kool-aid to get things to work, because it doesn't. 🙂

torndownunit wrote:

Joseph Kriz wrote:

sgt_harris,

I agree...

We all know there is some problem with Lion and some wireless routers...

I certianly am not suggesting everyone run out and buy a new router...

Apple apparently made some changes..

Are they using newer technology now in this system that is causing problems with older wireless technology that some routers may have?

I don't know, I don't work for Apple and they aren't telling....

Maybe some of the older routers need a firmware update and those companies may be working on just that?

Something like Firewire 400 cables that won't plug into the new computers with a Firewire 800 connection...

You would either need an adapter, a new cable, or a new device that has Firewire 800...

Some people still refuse to list what wireless router they are using...

As you mention, people in the UK or other places around the world are using different devices...

As I mentioned before, I am using a 4th Generation Airport Extreme.

I have never owned any other brand of wireless router.

There are other good brands out there but it seems that Lion may not like some of them at this time.

I am not saying this with any hostility meant towards you, but if this was the case, don't you think there should have been a warning for people buying or updating to Lion? This isn't a solution, it's an excuse. And back to common sense, every other device I have ever had in my house (dozens of devices) have no problem with my router or network. There is no an issue with the router. There is an issue with Lion using it. The idea that a hardware solution of any kind would be REQUIRED to fix the issue seems ridiculous.

I don't list the router brand because I have listed it in other posts. Tons of people have. There is no common thread that has been shown between router brands and the issue. Only Lion not working with them.

excuse my numerous typos in this one, half asleep lol. semi-corrected in quote.

torndownunit:

I stand corrected. It's just that I've read quite a few msgs where the writer switched to Apple's router and everything was just hunky-dory.

B

wbowles wrote:

torndownunit:

I stand corrected. It's just that I've read quite a few msgs where the writer switched to Apple's router and everything was just hunky-dory.

B

I have read numerous posts of an Apple router solving the problem... but also read quite a few where it didn't. There was quite a few posts related to that earlier on in the thread.

Well it fixed me... but I have a brand spanking new one with the dual channel support. Does everyone else have that or perhaps the first gen Extreme or Time Capsule ?

torndownunit wrote:

There is a common sense aspect here. If a network 'just works' with every single other device you run on it, and worked with Snow Leopard, there is SOME kind of Lion issue going on. The simple fact is the average user should not have to be spending days resolving a problem like this. Even those of us who have used Macs for 15+years are having major issues with this, what is the average consumer going to do? Yes, I was able to fix my problem. But it was just as much luck and perseverance. I went through hoops I should have never had to go through on a brand new machine with a fresh install of the OS.

Yes, millions of people are running Lion with no problems. But I am reading more and more about this issue not just on here, but on other forums I use. So while it's not happening to everyone, it is happening with a lot of people. There are a lot of people who will never join a discussion like this either. They will keep taking their machine to the Genius Bar over and over again getting no real resolution. People in these threads have had replacement machines and still had the problem. I have run into people who actually think this is just 'a problem with Macs' and are living with it. They shouldn't be, but they also shouldn't have to ever deal with this nonsense in the first place.

Which would you rather do, spend a week to work through the various pieces of data, and report to Apple what needs to be fixed, or wait 6 months for them to decide what the problem might be (I'd guess no one at Apple is having this problem, and it did not appear in their testing of Lion)?

Saying you're not responsible, is a cop out. If you want your world to be a healthy productive community, then you need to participate in it. The price you paid for your equipment includes support, so you have every right to demand Apple fix the problem. However, it is in your own very best interest to be a part of the solution, no matter how much you think the price you paid is actually worth to you.

If you are standing at a busy intersection as a pedestrian, and the walk light turns green, do you step off the curb and start without looking? Do you say to yourself, if someone hits me they'll go to jail, because that's what the law says, so i don't have to worry? I'd guess that you don't. I'd guess that you look both ways, and manage your own safety, because ultimately, both you and the cars have to be safe for you to be safe.

Product support works in a similar way. If the company doesn't know about your problem, it will be hard for them to fix it. You have the responsibility of telling them the problem exists, and helping them to resolve it by providing the information they need. Practically, they can't know your problem (will you step off the curb without thinking?) until they see your problem, and then there are lots of things which will control how they react (break, swerve, hit you). Lousy support companies, will figuratively hit you. Mediocre companys may break (start to provide service), and then swerve (pass on helping you out). Good service companies will slow even more (diagose and fix the problem without affecting others by swerving), or even stop (completely halt everything to address your needs).

Apple will take care of you I would guess. But only if they truely understand the problem. It doesn't matter what the problem is, if they can't reproduce it, they can understand how to fix it, and they surely can't better their test environment to avoid that problem in the future.

If you just want to hate on Apple, go for it. Given them **** and don't give up. See how fast that makes your problem go away. Let us know how that works for you, okay?

On Airplay device make sure Fat Channel Intolerant is Disabled.

Turn down Roaming Aggressiveness on your wirless adapter till the dropouts stop

Turn down your transmit power (Adapter advance settings) Go for a medium setting which will cover most in house location scenarios. You may need to turn it up if you take your wireless device outside.

Also, though not so prevalent for most modern (post 2010) devices, Check your hardware buses are not set to turn off power when not needed. (On your adapter this will be listed under Power Management Tab. If they are and a connection drops, the bus will go off and you cannot reconnect until reboot. (or connection refresh on some systems).

If your adapter has a Ad Hoc Power Management setting in Advanced section of Adapter properties set it to Disabled.

If some dropping out still occurs at what you consider to be optimal settings then select a different channel for your router. A good way to check is to turn the Roaming Aggressiveness right up. Open Networking and see how many connections locally (yours and neighbours are found). Turn down Aggressiveness. If still the same, then you are probably all on the same channel - Move channel and recheck.

Let me know how you all get on.

gphonei wrote:

torndownunit wrote:

There is a common sense aspect here. If a network 'just works' with every single other device you run on it, and worked with Snow Leopard, there is SOME kind of Lion issue going on. The simple fact is the average user should not have to be spending days resolving a problem like this. Even those of us who have used Macs for 15+years are having major issues with this, what is the average consumer going to do? Yes, I was able to fix my problem. But it was just as much luck and perseverance. I went through hoops I should have never had to go through on a brand new machine with a fresh install of the OS.

Yes, millions of people are running Lion with no problems. But I am reading more and more about this issue not just on here, but on other forums I use. So while it's not happening to everyone, it is happening with a lot of people. There are a lot of people who will never join a discussion like this either. They will keep taking their machine to the Genius Bar over and over again getting no real resolution. People in these threads have had replacement machines and still had the problem. I have run into people who actually think this is just 'a problem with Macs' and are living with it. They shouldn't be, but they also shouldn't have to ever deal with this nonsense in the first place.

Which would you rather do, spend a week to work through the various pieces of data, and report to Apple what needs to be fixed, or wait 6 months for them to decide what the problem might be (I'd guess no one at Apple is having this problem, and it did not appear in their testing of Lion)?

Saying you're not responsible, is a cop out. If you want your world to be a healthy productive community, then you need to participate in it. The price you paid for your equipment includes support, so you have every right to demand Apple fix the problem. However, it is in your own very best interest to be a part of the solution, no matter how much you think the price you paid is actually worth to you.

If you are standing at a busy intersection as a pedestrian, and the walk light turns green, do you step off the curb and start without looking? Do you say to yourself, if someone hits me they'll go to jail, because that's what the law says, so i don't have to worry? I'd guess that you don't. I'd guess that you look both ways, and manage your own safety, because ultimately, both you and the cars have to be safe for you to be safe.

Product support works in a similar way. If the company doesn't know about your problem, it will be hard for them to fix it. You have the responsibility of telling them the problem exists, and helping them to resolve it by providing the information they need. Practically, they can't know your problem (will you step off the curb without thinking?) until they see your problem, and then there are lots of things which will control how they react (break, swerve, hit you). Lousy support companies, will figuratively hit you. Mediocre companys may break (start to provide service), and then swerve (pass on helping you out). Good service companies will slow even more (diagose and fix the problem without affecting others by swerving), or even stop (completely halt everything to address your needs).

Apple will take care of you I would guess. But only if they truely understand the problem. It doesn't matter what the problem is, if they can't reproduce it, they can understand how to fix it, and they surely can't better their test environment to avoid that problem in the future.

If you just want to hate on Apple, go for it. Given them **** and don't give up. See how fast that makes your problem go away. Let us know how that works for you, okay?

Sorry man, I just can't agree with you. I am not trying to debate you on the issue. I have reported my problem. I don't feel it's my responsibilty to 'upgrade' my network hardware, which works perfectly fine. Bottom line for me. No one should have to be buying new routers as the only solution to this problem.

torndownunit wrote:

Sorry man, I just can't agree with you. I am not trying to debate you on the issue. I have reported my problem. I don't feel it's my responsibilty to 'upgrade' my network hardware, which works perfectly fine. Bottom line for me. No one should have to be buying new routers as the only solution to this problem.

No, i am not saying buy a router. I'm saying, talk to Apple, tell them there is a problem, 100 times, if that's what it takes.

Support effort is based on the count of incedences, severity of effect on customers and other statistics. If everyone, collectively doesn't push this issue to the tipping point, the support machinery is not going to "expose" the problem.

I believe that the problem is exposed. I believe that Apple is trying to solve the problem. It appears that at least some types of issues have been recognized, but not fixed effectively. So, those with a problem still have issues to deal with.

It's not over with yet. Everyone still needs to call Apple. But, it would be helpful to talk intelligently to them, and explain everything you've tried, repeatedly if necessary. I think a lot of people are doing this, exactly.

Some, are finding solutions by adjusting their settings and spending no money. What is not happening, is "diagnosis" of the root cause, so that this forum has precise steps to try to focus on which form of the problem you have.

The previous post with information on power management settings is a great example of things to try!

I think I've found an easy workaround to "sometimes won't re-connect wifi after sleep".

I wake up by pressing the power button.

Previously I was waking up by hitting spacebar.

I have a 2010 iMac with the latest Lion and all updates. Don't use time-machine. Don't have wired connection. Do use a bluetooth mouse.

Apple, I hope you're listening, as this might be a clue. I also have a 2011 Air, which does not have this problem -unless I have bluetooth enabled.

gphonei wrote:

No, i am not saying buy a router. I'm saying, talk to Apple, tell them there is a problem, 100 times, if that's what it takes......

...... Everyone still needs to call Apple. But, it would be helpful to talk intelligently to them, and explain everything you've tried, repeatedly if necessary......

That's not an easy ask.... I tried to speak intelligently to them, but they just follow a script. I could not deviate them from this. They said that if they didn't do all the steps on it then they coudln't move on.

This is an unacceptable way for Apple Care to behave. It took an hour or two of my valuable time to get nowhere, and not once did the guy show any prior knowledge or recognition of the fault being present anywhere but on my system.

I certainly can't do the "100 calls" to them, and nor should anyone else. They should have call analysis software that highlights repeated calls.... Every professional support company has this capability. Apple probably do know.... I think they just don't care.

As someone who has worked in an associated industry (Tv and Radio repair) I understand the frustration on both sides of this fence. However the reason for a "scripted" approach is twofold.

One. it allows the service team to expand their knowledge of a particular set up and transcribe the information for future problemsolving/product advancement.

Two. It avoids temporary solutions in favour of a bespoke service for your particular needs.

As an example. read through the manual (first page to last). What is not seen there is that virtually the whole of the modern processor working set is network service based (even for applications that do not make network calls the function and instruction sets are similar/same).

The "script" may not be helpful to you personally on this ocassion, but in time it will lead to a quicker resolution process.

On another note and with respect to the contributors who feel this is solely Apple's problem, I disagree. The end user has to have some responsibility for causality. As a rudimentary example. Windows XP to Vista. Following users recommendations they changed the desktop/Explorer functionality, though they left the end user a choice on which to use. It caused a great deal of problems with the way various functions and tasks were grouped, and, due to the change of security permissions and the new security template format, left many grasping at straws when trying to accomplish tasks that they had found very easy before.

as an out of the box experience, I personally cannot fault the product (iPad2)and except for hardware failure/faults, find that it does exactly what it says on the tin.

But having cross referenced a lot of the problems in this forum and elsewhere, it is clear to see that 90% of the solutions are already on Apple's Support pages already.

in many respects apple are in a no win situation. They are reliant on thrid party equipment manufacturers to produce hardware/software that is seamless for Apple's products and user friendly, together with having to code and restructure their products for diverse set ups and hardware.

Yet where they have also tailored a range of products to accomplich everything, they are then maligned (usually for product cost) for producing a seamless experience centred on just their own products.

If users are frustrated with Apple because their set up is only one utilising Apple products I can fully appreciate and concur with a sense of a lack of due diligence and product/service professionalism on their part.

However, with even the best will in the world, it is just not possible, or reasonable, to expect them to produce a seamless experience across platforms that in all honesty may be made up of old, obsolete,or dated hardware and software.

Bottom line. Apple are responsible for their own products. They are not responsible for everyone else's. End users have to accept some responsibility for the choices they make and if that means tweaking various setting in routers. adapters then that is something that comes with those choices. If a third party manufacturermakes is clear in their documentation that adjustments may be necessary, it is unfair to blame Apple if it does not work the way you want.

Try the adjustments. Contact the third parties to ensure software updates, check for known problems product recalls, known bugs, etc.

If everything is in order and there is still a problem - only then should you be having a pop at Apple for what you feel is something less than what you expected.

Please note that my view here is not aimed at anybody in particular and I hope no one feels offended by what I have said. I am just trying to be objective about things I have experienced myself, and what that same experience has shown to be the case in the majority of cases. More often than not, it is indeed "operator error' but I do mean that in the kindest way possible.

For those here I do sincerely hope that your particular problems are resolved. But please let's have a little less "kick the donkey" in Apple's direction. Their service is superb when compared with a great many other operators in the market.

Guys,

Please, why don´t you start a new thread on Apple's responsability for their products and leave this one open for the purpose it was opened ?

Coppertiger wrote:

As someone who has worked in an associated industry (Tv and Radio repair) I understand the frustration on both sides of this fence. However the reason for a "scripted" approach is twofold.

One. it allows the service team to expand their knowledge of a particular set up and transcribe the information for future problemsolving/product advancement.

Two. It avoids temporary solutions in favour of a bespoke service for your particular needs.

As an example. read through the manual (first page to last). What is not seen there is that virtually the whole of the modern processor working set is network service based (even for applications that do not make network calls the function and instruction sets are similar/same).

The "script" may not be helpful to you personally on this ocassion, but in time it will lead to a quicker resolution process.

On another note and with respect to the contributors who feel this is solely Apple's problem, I disagree. The end user has to have some responsibility for causality. As a rudimentary example. Windows XP to Vista. Following users recommendations they changed the desktop/Explorer functionality, though they left the end user a choice on which to use. It caused a great deal of problems with the way various functions and tasks were grouped, and, due to the change of security permissions and the new security template format, left many grasping at straws when trying to accomplish tasks that they had found very easy before.

as an out of the box experience, I personally cannot fault the product (iPad2)and except for hardware failure/faults, find that it does exactly what it says on the tin.

But having cross referenced a lot of the problems in this forum and elsewhere, it is clear to see that 90% of the solutions are already on Apple's Support pages already.

in many respects apple are in a no win situation. They are reliant on thrid party equipment manufacturers to produce hardware/software that is seamless for Apple's products and user friendly, together with having to code and restructure their products for diverse set ups and hardware.

Yet where they have also tailored a range of products to accomplich everything, they are then maligned (usually for product cost) for producing a seamless experience centred on just their own products.

If users are frustrated with Apple because their set up is only one utilising Apple products I can fully appreciate and concur with a sense of a lack of due diligence and product/service professionalism on their part.

However, with even the best will in the world, it is just not possible, or reasonable, to expect them to produce a seamless experience across platforms that in all honesty may be made up of old, obsolete,or dated hardware and software.

Bottom line. Apple are responsible for their own products. They are not responsible for everyone else's. End users have to accept some responsibility for the choices they make and if that means tweaking various setting in routers. adapters then that is something that comes with those choices. If a third party manufacturermakes is clear in their documentation that adjustments may be necessary, it is unfair to blame Apple if it does not work the way you want.

Try the adjustments. Contact the third parties to ensure software updates, check for known problems product recalls, known bugs, etc.

If everything is in order and there is still a problem - only then should you be having a pop at Apple for what you feel is something less than what you expected.

Please note that my view here is not aimed at anybody in particular and I hope no one feels offended by what I have said. I am just trying to be objective about things I have experienced myself, and what that same experience has shown to be the case in the majority of cases. More often than not, it is indeed "operator error' but I do mean that in the kindest way possible.

For those here I do sincerely hope that your particular problems are resolved. But please let's have a little less "kick the donkey" in Apple's direction. Their service is superb when compared with a great many other operators in the market.

This is the problem though. What warnings or recommendations did we have? Have we had any update on what our 'responsibilities' as far as our networks? Or any input whatsoever on routers that may not work with Lion? If I knew full well updating to Lion that it may not be compatible with my Network, then I would agree that it would be my responsibility. And it would also have been my choice to upgrade or not. Under those circumstances I would not be complaining. But we haven't had any recommendations from Apple, or any acknowledgment of the problem.