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I would like to upgrade from my Mac Mini 2009 (2.26 Ghz with Snow Leopard) to the new Mac Mini just released which will come with Lion. However, I would prefer to run Snow Leopard. Are there any ways to install Snow Leopard on the new machine?
Mac Mini, Mac OS X (10.6.2)
Steve Jolly wrote:
Remember, this situation is not unexpected: it's "standard practice" for any new Mac to be unable to run system software versions that were released before the new hardware came out, even if the hardware appeared only a few days after an OS update (sometimes you'll see a special OS interim update posted by Apple that's designed to support just that one particular new hardware variant). Actually, we're lucky that Snow Leopard is even semi-runnable on the new Minis, and that partial success gives real hope for significant future progress.
As I said much much earlier on this thread, I'd bet money that the mini was ready several months ago, Apple engineers made some attempt to get it to work on 10.6.7 or 10.6.8, they came up against the same problems everyone is seeing, and they just gave up and delayed releasing the machine until Lion was released.
This was very much a management decision -- Apple engineers got the i5/i7 Thunderbolt iMac to work on 10.6.7, and they could have gotten the mini (and air) to run it if Apple had been willing to make that investment. Or maybe not -- and if it really is some hard technical problem involved then we may just be screwed in trying to engineer a hackintosh, too.
I would have run things differently, in that I would have required that all production machines run both SL and Lion through the end of 2011. But I'm in the enterprise, where we buy hardware on schedules, and we are really screwed in that the only current machines that we can buy that run SL are iMacs and MBPs. Because right now I really need to buy minis and MBAs. (And xserves. *sigh*). And I'm also a volunteer sysadmin for a private school, and the fact that our two new teacher laptops won't run Rosetta is pretty inconvenient.
This is just one more example that Apple doesn't really care about the needs of either the enterprise or education...
OK, so maybe someone can tell me what I did wrong. I attached with Firewire 800 my new MBP running Lion to an older iMac. I booted from Target Disk mode and installed Snow Leopard onto a partition of the MBP HD (physically on the iMac, but onto the MBP partition). Then I did all the software updates until I got to 10.6.7 which is what you need to be supported by the new MBP. When I try to open the partition of the HD with Snow Leopard on my MBP, on startup after I press option and select the correct disk all I get is the gray apple and no pinwheel. It just stays like that...
AriU...when I tried to do it this way (i.e. via partitioning the Mini drive), it did not work either. I started by wiping the target (new Mini's) drive and proceeding with John Fair's process. Another thing that I found is there is some ambiguity in the description of the process of "installing SL" on the TDM drive. Launching from the "retail" SL install disk on the host machine and chosing the target drive as the install drive was not allowed by the installer application.
I had to use the "restore" tab on Disc Utility running on the host Mac (in my case a MBP) and choosing the "retail" SL install disc in the "source" field and the drive of the target Mac (my new Mini) in the "destination" field. This essentially installs the contents of the whole "retail" SL disc on the target drive. Then I was able to proceed with the SL install process to the target drive as John's steps outline including the "hang" and disk swap to the restore disk for the host hardware.
Maybe this would have worked also on a partition of the target drive as you were trying to do, but I don't know as I didn't try to do it that way. Hope this helps.
After almost constant tinkering to restore some functionality under SL running on the new harware, I confess I have retreated to running Lion on my new Mini. I could have lived with the huge performance hit as I (like most here) hope someone will come to their rescue with new code or Apple will step up to the task of fixing this egregious situation. But for me, the loss of being able to use an external optical drive was the key for several reasons that would be a distraction in this thread. My other issue was the loss of Front Row and that "fix" has been accompllished now. I just wasn't doing the Front Row restore process correctly on my first attempts. So in the end I have come to accept Lion on the new Mini because it now functioms in a way that meets my needs.
That said though, there are still lots of reasons why running SL on the new Apple hardware is the only option for many loyal Mac users which can't be accommodated with any remedies, and that is very unfortunate. I sympathize mightily for Mac owners in those situations and I wish all well in their quest. Though my particular loss of desired functionality in Lion on the new hardware has been accommodated I will continue to follow this forum thread in the hope that success will one day be achieved.
I still prefer Snow Leopard and will return to running it if this all gets fixed somehow. The decision by Apple to corrupt their OS software to accomplish the efficiencies of having just one OS that serves the hand held users and the rest of us was a poor one to my mind, and I think it will ultimately have a negative effect on their sales to a previosuly very loyal base of hardware customers.
I have been following this thread with great interest.
About 9 months ago, the power supply in my iMac G5 died, and I decided to have it replaced as the last repair I would do on that machine. In July, the hard disk crashed. I have a two year old Mac Mini used primarily with my home entertainment system that could replace it. But that would require more RAM and a larger HD.
So, without doing any of my usual "due diligence" I decided that a $600 Mac Mini was in order to get more RAM, a larger HD and OS X Lion thrown in as well. I was not aware of the Rosetta deletion...
I got the machine up and running, and updated the important software that I use: MS Office from the 2004 version, and NO-IP so that I can access my files (and screen share) from ANYWHERE. I tend to work portable on my 1G 13" MacBook Pro. I will probably not notice the speed hit compared to my old iMac G5.
However, my biggest problem was with Quicken. I continue to use Quicken 2002 as after that date their later versions were feature downgrades. Even if I upgrade to the last version of Quicken (2007), it needs Rosetta to work. Quicken Essentials, the intel-updated version, eliminated the ability to import QIF files, which is essential for me.
I will not belabor the long anti-Mac history that Intuit has exhibited since 1997, but I need to be able to access my Quicken file on my platforms, so downgrading to SL has much glamor for me. No, converting to Quicken for Windows is not a solution for me, even though I do have Parallels and Windows XP installed on the Mac Mini.
However, earlier in this thread there were two posts suggesting that Rosetta can run in Lion, and one even asked for Steve Jolly's response! I am also waiting for his response, as his summaries continue to suggest that Rosetta cannot be run in Lion.
Additionally, I am a bit concerned about iPhoto's in the new Mac Mini requirement to update my iPhoto files. I use iPhoto '09 on both platforms. I like to maintain 100% compatibility between the two platforms so that when one goes down, I can immediately start working on the other. If I upgrade to the new Lion iPhoto on the Mac Mini, these files will no longer be readable on iPhoto on my MBP unless I also upgrade it from SL; something I am unwilling to do at this time.
Luckily for me, I am in London waiting for the birth of my first grandchild (now two weeks overdue), and athough I can access the Mac Mini through file and screen sharing, I continue to work on my MBP for the near future. Hence, I can wait for others success stories in the interim.
Lastly, I have been an Apple consumer since my Apple //+ in 1979, and I, for one, say that their determination to keep hardware working with their updated software and operating systems have been unparalleled. I have kept older machines running well past their expected life span, especially if I had been using Windows. I do admit that I keep an Apple //c in its Prairie Pack with its LCD screen and battery pack for use if and when I ever need to reprogram my X-10 Powerstation CP210 controller (hahahahaha, but true!).
To those frustrated new Lion users, as I am one, I will just say that past experience indicates that the bugs will be worked out, Apple will address some of the differences and the user community will address other ones...
Nice summary, MichaeLAX, and another great, typical story outlining why there's a widespread need for Snow Leopard to function acceptably on the new iMac. Cathy: thanks! -- a nicely thought-through guess on the hatching history of the 2011 Mini and how we wound up in this situation.
To answer the question about Rosetta. I have not personally been able to get Rosetta installed and functioning properly under Lion on my 2011 Minis. I'm reading through various postings by folks who say they know how to do it, but I haven't yet actually seen a posting saying it's done, up and running, and PPC software is singing and dancing on the Lion machine in question.
Anyway, there's no response from me on Rosetta because I'm not sure if someone else has found a solution and I just don't know it. Still in NCIS mode, no body found, just trying to figure out the crime and if the victim can be resuscitated. 😕
Are we all agreed that Lion does significantly LESS than Snow Leopard?
When in the history of Apple has an OS done LESS than its predecessor?
Even the during transition from OS9 to OSX, we did not lose so many fundamental features as from SL to Lion.
To force new MacMini buyers to run ONLY Lion might be just a ploy to boost the Desktop Mac Pro range.
I understand the need to move forward, but NOT at the expense of Good and functional software with No replacement features.
Disclosure: When I ordered my Mac Mini, I had no idea it would be so crippled compared to SL... Now I feel abused.
William, I sympathize, but we need to take this kind of discussion to another thread (there are MANY of them) where people are expressing their dissatisfaction with Lion and their perceptions of functions lost; the responses of other users to those postings, their theories, etc. etc. That's a request put on the table for everyone, not just William, who is offering lots of useful observations on this thread.
It seems on-topic, here, but it's not. If we digress off into our upsets with Apple over the Lion introduction and our theories over why Evil Apple allowed this state of affairs, engineered it intentionally, etc., this thread will NOT last. It will be overwhelmed by that debate and eventually deleted. This is too valuable a thread for us to lose our self-discipline and get into flames about Apple -- here! There are lots of threads devoted to that right now elsewhere in this Support Community / Discussions venue.
You say useful things and you have strong feelings. It will generate a chorus of yea's and nay's -- and then this thread will stop functioning about INSTALLING SNOW LEOPARD ON THE 2011 MAC MINI -- and the almost 11,000 viewers will lose a resource.
Good work, but we gotta take it elsewhere for that portion -- and only that portion -- of the discussion. Fair request? Thanks!
Yes we can can! 😁 FREE THE SNOW LEOPARD 10,000 ! etc etc etc
One quick response (I apologize) as a counterweight, and then I, too will take my thoughts on Apple / Lion / and the wisdom or lack of it at Apple to another thread...
A reminder: some of us think of Apple as a huge, impregnable success and a steamroller. Short memories! One sizeable mistake and Apple will be "doing an H-P" and retrenching from a failure. We need to ride the horse we have, offer guidance, and, I believe, respect the exceptional integrity that Apple generally shows in its business model.
There are also lots of folks who believe Apple does what it can with the resources it has (thanks, Cathy!) and makes choices, sometimes (even often!) not perfect ones. It sometimes goes back and revisits those choices later and offers make-goods and corrections. Nothing is written in stone, and Apple does (often) respond to valid criticism when it has resources and answers that can be freed up.
Not perfect for all of us (I'm one of the ones drowning in a little backwater whirlpool of Mini / Snow Leopard and the direction of Lion), but I know what I have and I don't think Apple was responsible for the Kennedy assassination or 9-11. Well, okay, maybe 9-11 and Global Warming, but ...
And maybe the Destruction of the Dinosaurs, but not the rest of the stuff... Gee, I liked those dinosaurs as a kid -- never met one personally, but they looked cuddly. Particularly the big purple one. I blame Apple for that, too. 😝
Note: absolutely NOT making fun of what you said, William, because it was measured and you said it with good will -- just having some fun with the flames that are being posted elsewhere.
Steve, I hear you. Sorry, Apple provides no private message service on their forums (sheesh!) so here it is...
You are dreaming if you think this thread will make any difference at all to Apple. Sorry. Their internal hierarchy is rigid and unforgiving. You are far better placed to contact the Lion evangelist as a developer, privately via email, than to hope this thread will nudge Apple one angstrom.
William, thanks for the response. However, this thread is not aimed at Apple at all. I don't expect a reaction -- this is for YOU, and for other users.
I never assume that Apple engineers read these threads -- that's not what discussion threads are for. There are all sorts of Support channels to give Apple feedback. THIS is a "Support Community" (used to be "Discussions") where we talk to each other and very knowledgable members of the community usually join in with the benefits of their experience. Occasionally, someone from Apple will chime in.
This thread is ONLY here for the posting of messages from people who are trying to run Snow Leopard on a 2011 Mac Mini. It offers information on what is working and what isn't, real-time.
If someone from Apple notices (and I guarantee that someone has) and it helps motivate some actions at some future time, that's certainly welcome. But this is never the forum for Apple to "respond" with a posting or an explanation, etc. -- never has, they never will. Not here, not this, for that.
Email to Steve Jobs? He's Chairman of the Board. You might get an good answer from a great man (who isn't omniscient, just a fine visionary and builds a great team)! Personally, I'll trust the Community to help find an answer; Steve has plenty on his plate right now, and so does Apple. Like Cathy, I suspect thst an answer will emerge if it's possible, engineering-wise. It may not be, but we'll find out, soon. Eleven thousand views and a growing conversation on other websites will produce a result one way or another. And, Lion will get better. There were, by the way, many well-considered reasons why Rosetta is not supported in Lion: it requires some big resources that aren't obvious to someone who doesn't "code." There may be hacks or other code-bases that can be constructed to support it. I mentioned running "virtual machines" for Rosetta and Snow Leopard in a previous post, and there are folks working very hard on that one, 'tho it has drawbacks.
Hope that I'm adding to this discussion in a useful way. Trying to. Gotta go read my email, now, and run a company.
Almost 11,000 views here. Yes we can! 😁 FREE THE SNOW LEOPARD 10,000 ! etc
I mentioned before about parallels server for the mac mini -- we demo'd parallels server (on a mac pro) earlier in the summer, and were very impressed with how it just worked.
If you have a 2011 mac mini and any mac running Snow Leopard Server (not client) then you could contact Parallels and ask them for a demo for parallels server for the mac mini.
(Note for migrating from an actual to virtual machine -- we installed mac os x server on the virtual machine, then booted the existing server into target disk mode and used SetupAssistant to transfer it over. They have a procedure using a TimeMachine backup, but it didn't transfer over a bunch of stuff.)
(Further note -- Snow Leopard Server costs $500, and Parallels Server for the mini costs $200, so this is not a cheap solution if you otherwise have no use for these things.)
Apple reading email to Steve Jobs: /http://www.macrumors.com/2011/08/30/a-look-at-apples-handling-of-customer-emails -to-executives/
Great posting! Yes, everything you said is right on target!
There are much less expensive virtual-machine solutions out there, just a lot less easy to set up -- and of course Paralllels has the advantage of running another OS in tandem with Lion, so you can literally cut-and-paste smoothly from Snow Leopard to Lion and vice-versa (if all works as intendedl!).
I don't have time, now, to add pointers to other virtualization solutions. Some are practically public-domain, mostly shareware, and are surprisingly robust -- just not as user friendly on set-up as the big commercial goodies. Folks are working on that, as I said before.
If someone from Code Warriors is viewing here, howsabout tackling creating a CrossOver "bottle" for running Snow Leopard as a task under Lion, guys? That should be do-able... and very efficient because it uses Lion resources (but a heck of a project! -- is my lack of sophistication regarding CrossOver showing here?). I think you have -- ummm -- roughly eleven thousand possible customers for it out-of-the-gate.
Yes we can can! 😁 FREE THE SNOW LEOPARD 10,000 ! etc etc
I have been following this thread for a while and I am impressed at the progress thus far. I do not own a 2011 Mac Mini but was planning on purchasing one until I did this type of research and discovered these limits.
One thing that I was thinking about but have no way to test my theory, is when you finally get your 2011 Mac Mini running Snow Leopard 10.6.8, is the sluggish speed issue due to the Mac Mini booting in 32 bit mode by default? That would certainly explain those poor benchmark stats people are posting. There is an app called "32- or 64-bit Kernel Startup Mode Selector".
I believe that Snow Leopard does this and if you can try to force it into 64 bit mode, your speed issues may be solved. Since the 2011 Mac Mini was designed to run Lion 10.7 the hardware may be able to do 64 bit only and not 32 bit mode at all especially if the 2011 Mac Mini has a 64 bit EFI, and when you boot 10.6.8 you are hindering it's performance in 32 bit mode.
As for driver issues has anyone ever zapped the PRAM on reboot and checked these devices out?
--my 2 cents
Can I install Snow Leopard on the new Mac Mini
