I really, really miss "File-Save As..."

True, but that remark was more aimed at Versions in general, not in its relation to Save As. Certainly Versions takes up more space than a regular Save, and that adds up.

Sorry, but this whole discussion is about the lack of 'save as'. Versions is hugely more efficient in disk space terms than 'save as'. One 'save as' could be equivalent to dozens of 'versions'.

Of course it takes up more space than a regular save, but that is because you only have one version with 'regular save'.

Since people are doing semantics, correct me if I'm wrong but...

Doesn't "Duplicate" mean to make something exactly the same as the other - with all the same attributes, including the same file location. Here the implementation changes the name - adds 'copy' to it - and you have to take that out of the name now (before - > Save As... navigate to the folder you want it in - done. Now with Duplicate it's "Duplicate" -> File_copy, remove the copy part of the name, then navigate to folder and save.

Save As... is not only for duplicating but also for putting into a specific place as in "Save as if this file lived on drive 'X'" - it isn't just about duplicating files.

Furthermore the whole "versioning" thing isn't clear what's going on - I got the whole time machine window thing and wondering *** did I do? It's just too abrupt of a transition. F-

This discussion has lost its place a while ago, but it is obvious that 'duplicate' refers to content, as clearly, you couldn't duplicate a file with the same name in the same location, etc.

Duplicate does exactly as you suggest that 'Save as...' did. When you duplicate the file, then when you try to save, it has the same dialogue box as 'save as', i.e. it asks you for a fie name and a location.

No difference.

If you don't like versions, then just don't use it. Simple as that. For me, it's a huge step forward, never having to worry about saving, or making multiple copies of files, and always being able to revet back to a previous version. A major plus point in my view.

Maybe I can explain it a little better the new method that Lion uses to save a changed document.

Example:

Prior to Lion, open a document, make the changes and select file>save as and then type in the new file name and the location. The result is two files. The original and the changed one.

In Lion, open the file and in the file window just to the right of the file name is a small hidden down arrow. Move your cursor there and it will appear. Click on the down arrow and select duplicate. A duplicate file will open. Make any changes you want to the duplicate file and click on the little red circle in the upper left corner. A window will appear asking you if you want to save the changes you made, letting you change the file name and selecting the location where to save it to. Click save and your done. Until you close the duplicate document auto save and versions are not active.

So you see the method is different but the result is the same.

So do I!!!

Thanks Bags - that helps.

I prefer the save as feature. Wish they hadn't changed it because I accidentally changed my original documents. Thumbs down!

Whip Hubley wrote:

I prefer the save as feature. Wish they hadn't changed it because I accidentally changed my original documents. Thumbs down!

Then just open up the versions and get the original.

Result may be same, but the method is downright absurd.

Here's another fun example:

Let's try to save an existing Pages 09 document as a Pages 08 document.

What you would have done in the old work flow is:

1. Simply click "Save As..."

2. Choose Pages 08 in the dialog

3. Choose a location or change the name.

4. Click OK.

5. Close the document.

What you have to do now:

0. Click "Unlock" if it's an older document because you may be crazy or stupid and need to have an extra hurdle to protect you from yourself.

1. Click File>Duplicate.

2. If you've made changes to the document, click through the dialog to specify whether you want to "Duplicate and Revert" or just "Duplicate"

3. Click File>Save...

4. Choose Save a Copy as Pages 08

5. Change the location and change the name.

6. Click OK.

7. The duplicate and the original are still sitting on your desktop, but you're done with them so let's close them. First the duplicate.

8. Cancel out of the automatic save dialog that pops up on the duplicate because the program doesn't care that you've already saved a copy.

9. Now close the original.

That's just nuts...

I have had to do some file saving recently and I can't even (and haven;t) imagine going into finder to try and find the 'duplicates' that I saved as the same file name as the original. I don;t know what Lion is doing with them but the 'Save As' feature was just simple. the box popped up, you wrote in a name and confirmed the place and bang, you're done. This dup[licate stuff is for the birds. What do Lions eat anyway? Raw meat? My raw meat?

I want SAVE AS BACK!😠

And then there's Mail which can't seem to recogize it's connected to a network most of the time. Who knows whether I'm getting all of my mail even though I am getting junk.😠

Then there are both iCal and Address Book. Does anyone use month view in iCal? if you do, can you see it, can you see your appointments cleraly?😠

Addres book knocked out most of my contacts because evidently they weren't formatted correctly. I am in the process of reformatting a whole long list of addressses which got located after 'Z' so that they will go into the book. I feel like I have to do this before I sync my phone to iTunes because I have new Apps and some rearranging I need to do because my 3Gs is running out of room. And I have no idea at all what will happen to the misplaced addresses if I don't fix them befor eI sync. I suppose I could uncheck sync addresses in iTunes but that would be too easy! This Lion has beacome a growling meat hungry pain in the a s!!

Use 'export' rather than 'duplicate'.

Result may be same, but the method is downright absurd.

Here's another fun example:

Let's try to save an existing Pages 09 document as a Pages 08 document.

What you would have done in the old work flow is:

1. Simply click "Save As..."

2. Choose Pages 08 in the dialog

3. Choose a location or change the name.

4. Click OK.

5. Close the document.

What you have to do now:

0. Click "Unlock" if it's an older document because you may be crazy or stupid and need to have an extra hurdle to protect you from yourself.

1. Click File>Duplicate.

2. If you've made changes to the document, click through the dialog to specify whether you want to "Duplicate and Revert" or just "Duplicate"

3. Click File>Save...

4. Choose Save a Copy as Pages 08

5. Change the location and change the name.

6. Click OK.

7. The duplicate and the original are still sitting on your desktop, but you're done with them so let's close them. First the duplicate.

8. Cancel out of the automatic save dialog that pops up on the duplicate because the program doesn't care that you've already saved a copy.

9. Now close the original.

That's just nuts...

You are right. The method you describe is nuts. That's because there is a better way.

1. Open the document you want to change. Nothing different here.

2. In the window just to the right of the file name is a hidden down arrow. Click on it and select duplicate. You do not have to unlock the file. Do not select file duplicate from the menu bar.

3. A duplicate document opens. You can close the original now if you want to.

4. Make all the changes you like and close the document. A window will appear just like if you selected save as in SL.

5. You can now rename the file and select where you want to save it to and the file type.

It is just as easy as the old way. The only difference is the method used.

I appreciate the response - I really do, but I don't get the same outcome when I follow your steps.

Your method does eliminate the 0th step - unlocking the document. That gets me to:

1. Open the document you want to change. Nothing different here.

2. In the window just to the right of the file name is a hidden down arrow. Click on it and select duplicate. You do not have to unlock the file. Do not select file duplicate from the menu bar.

3. A duplicate document opens - sometimes stating that there were issues and asking if I want to review them, sometimes not. (I'm guessing this is because it's a Pages '08 document being opened with Pages '09).

4. Nine times out of ten, I'm still prompted at this point as if I've made changes to the document, so click through the dialog to specify whether I want to "Duplicate and Revert" or just "Duplicate." Maybe this is because I'm often opening older documents and Pages is making some kind of changes behind the scene when it opens. Regardless, because of the duplication process, I have to execute this step almost every time for pre '09 docs.

5. Make all the changes you like and close the document. A window will appear just like if you selected save as in SL. - Yes, this also saves a step, because you don't have to save and then close, thanks (but see note below.)

6. You can now rename the file and select where you want to save it to and the file type.

7. Close the original window - do this step whenever you want, but it's still an extra step.

Now many of these extra steps may be a function of my needing to work with Pages '08 docs, but the fact remains that the problems wouldn't exist if I could still just use "Save As..." It is a separate but equally disappointing issue that two versions of the same product can't play more nicely together, assuming that's why changes are detected before I've ever made a keystroke.

As for that saved step at close: While transparent backup of a version is something I like, transparent saving of a version at close is unintuitive (to me, personally, and aparently to a great number of us). If I don't want to save my changes for whatever reason, I now have to do a roll back, and if I do want to save my changes, I still find myself hitting Cmd-S before closing. Why? Because from an interface perspective, closing just doesn't feel like saving. I'll probably stop doing that over time, but closing to save reduces an action at the cost of introducing a layer of abstraction. I'm usually all about simplifying, but sometimes taking something out of a process does not equate with simplifying the process. The "Don't make me think." mantra may be bad in a societal or political context, but it's the right attitude when designing tools.

Things change and it's often a good thing, and whether or not this is good UI design is a matter of opinion. My personal point of view is that this was a step in the wrong direction if for no other reason than that it doesn't account for as many scenarios as Save As... I'm basing that statement on the fact that I get variable behavior across document versions and across apps. (TextEdit has different problems from Pages, for instance.)

Variable behaviors require me to disengage from production to focus on the tool. And I (and many others) simply do not like the distraction. Will we get over it? We may have to. I'm "over" the passing of my dog, but I still miss him. He was a good dog, and he fetched better than my cat - who really does fetch when she's in the mood. I think you can see the analogy.

These forums are great, though: you've given me a way to eliminate two steps, so thanks again.

A hidden arrow, now that's genius. I've spent a while trying to figure this out.