DON'T UPDATE TO LION!

R C-R wrote:

My intent is to encourage users with problems to try to diagnose & correct them using the tools & techniques that are intended for that purpose, instead of relying on dubious post hoc logic.

Dubious post hoc logic? Dubious post, perhaps. There is nothing the user can do to fix a bug in the OS code. Only Apple can fix that.

Comparing Lion to SL is apple and oranges if you want to work the same as you have throughout OS X. That’s what you and others can’t seem to understand. It’s not a matter of adapting, it’s a matter of inefficiency. Lion’s changes make it harder to work. SL and previous versions were consistent and easy when doing tasks.

Machines and user configurations aside, Lion fails the Mac user working community right out of the box. How many from that group are saying Lion is good and they like how it works? What is your statistic on that?

capaho wrote:

Dubious post hoc logic? Dubious post, perhaps. There is nothing the user can do to fix a bug in the OS code. Only Apple can fix that.

The post hoc fallicy is to assume that just because some event occurs immediately after some other event, the first event must of necessity be the cause of the second one. It is a necessary condition for that cause & effect relationship to be true but not a sufficient one.

So while it is true that users can't fix bugs in Apple's code, you cannot logically conclude that just because your problems appeared after upgrading that you have proven that their causes must be due to bugs in the code. To do that, you need collaborating evidence that eliminates other possible causes ... & explains why not all users are experiencing the same problems you are.

"Machines and user configurations aside, Lion fails the Mac user working community right out of the box. How many from that group are saying Lion is good and they like how it works? What is your statistic on that?"

It's not my need to prove the statistics that it works or that people like it. It is YOUR need (it is your proclamation, after all) that it doesn't and they don't. How do you come by that statement. What are YOUR statistics having to do with user happiness and OS efficacy? Bold statements do not, of themselves, prove themselves by their very existence. By what arrangement do YOU speak for the "Mac user working community?"

As to the quoted

"The Dude Abides wrote:

Let's move on."

You first. I'm going to keep posting responses as long as you keep refuting the logic of the very statistics you asked me to supply in the first place. <1% is a very small number of unhappy users. Unless you are able to show a >50% unhappiness rate with Lion, which you so far have not, we will not be moving on as long as you keep pushing unsubstantiated statistics.

i think its funny how the new OS seems to always take a beating from a small % of its users. win 2000 to XP was the same way. everyone complained and ******* about how different and crappy it was. Then vista came out and everyone said "omg i miss xp it was the uber greatest"

this is my first mac so i cant speak on SL vs lion vs tiger vs anything, but i can say that you can't please everyone and there is always going to be someone that does not like or want the next new thing, regardless of how good or bad it may be. I would bet money that some of the same people complaining about lion were complaining about leopard or snow when it was first released.

give the lion some time to grow and let apple fix the small things and give them sometime to process your complaints and possibly fix the things that bother you. I mean they do it for iOS mostly, why would they not provide the same feedback-to-developement to the OSX users too.

i love OS X Lion despite having some issues when i first installed it and the occasinal problem now and then but the features and benefits outwiegh the problems 10 fold. now if you don't like it revert back and if you are upset about paying $30 consult apple. just keep this in mind windows operating systems are usually 10 times more expensive and have a lot more issues. also complaining on a SUPPORT forum will not help you because the people here usually are either

1. having problems with something

or

2. helping those with a problem

so if you are not going to discuss a particular problem i suggest going somewhere else

Stop your preaching. Loin was and is not ready to be released to the public. Apple as blown it this time. They should spell Lion "Vista" As a long time Mac user (over 20 years-first Mac was an Mac SE) and many, many Macs owned, Loin is maybe the most problem OS I have had on a Mac. There are many great features in this new release, but the kernel panics are intollerable. Just this evening in the past hour hour my MacBook Pro has crashed 5 times! I hope I can finish this reply before it crashes. That is just not right. I do believe Apple will straight Lion out, but they should have added a warring notice for it. My Mac Pro with Snow Lepard work flawlessly. I will not upgrade it to Loin until Apple does fix it for real....maybe. I use Mac's because they work, Loin, not so much.

Well, first of all any statistics gathered here are not even remotely relevant. I don’t need to prove anything. It seems that you are the one in need of proof that Lion is a good OS. You can go on and on ranting about statistics and logic, but, “Bold statements do not, of themselves, prove themselves by their very existence.” My premise is my experience along with the support of others and the conclusions are in agreement: Lion is not user friendly with complex work flow. So chew on that logic for a while.

I’m saying it is a failure for those who use it for work. There are enough posts in here to support that. Yet, show me even one post from a high end user that is happy with Lion. I am not speaking for the Mac user working community, I’m speaking with them. I’m speaking of my experience with SL and Lion and there is no comparison, SL works, Lion fails next to it. All OS X’s transitioned from one to the next seamlessly regarding work flow, GUI notwithstanding. All I and others want is choice. Give us preferences and options and all of this blathering will go away, or at least give way to lesser complaints.

Again- I was asked for statistics, I furnished them. Clearly, the number of posters on this forum, in total, is less than10% of the number of Mac devices in operation, and is much more likely less than 1%. Having established that, if we just look at Lion, Apple sold more than a million units the first day. Let's assume that, by now, five million units are in use. There are certainly less than one thousand individual complainers about Lion here. Again, less than 1% of users have complained about Lion here.

As to Lion being the "most problem" Apple OS ever, I started X with 10.0.3 and believe me, Lion is less stable than that and also 10.1. X didn't start to get stable until 10.2, and then became really good with 10.4 and 10.5. I felt 10.6 was a bit of a step backwards, but 10.7 has given me far fewer issues than 10.6. I have turned off the parts I do not like and it works perfectly.

If some people are having problems with Lion, then some people are having problems with Lion. But certainly the majority of people who have Lion are not having issues with it. Saying they are is just you saying it. To prove it with statistics would mean somone here would need to add up every individual complainer posting here and then we could get a percentage based on sales figures. But not one complainer here has done so. Why? I know it would mean some work, but continuing to insist on a point of view without at least making some effort to ground your point with actual facts.....

As to "those who use it for work," or "high end user[s]" are having problems with Lion to an abnormal degree, no one has shown even a scintilla of evidence as to that truth. Saying it is so does not prove it is so.

I haven't had a single kernal panic with Lion. You say you have. There is no way to say Lion (or, as you say, Loin) is not ready for release. I had the betas on my computer for months before release and never had a problem. Now I have the release version and I have no problems.

So those of you who keep making sweeping statements about Lion being a total failure, that everyone has problems with it, or that the "special people" (not us "normal users") don't like it, this is just you talking. You have no facts to back up your statements. At least I have made the effort to find sales figures and provide you with them. You may not like them, but they are real. They are facts. To deny them is pointless, as they are facts.

Oh, and this is a "support" forum, as pointed out above. No one on this thread has even attempted to give enough info for any of us to even offer help. When I suggested that some people might look to their systems, and when someone else suggested that folks at least consider that something they have on their machines might be contributing to the problems, eeek!

"All I and others want is choice. Give us preferences and options and all of this blathering will go away, or at least give way to lesser complaints."

Fine. Here are some choices. Revert to SL. Sell your Mac and get a Windows machine (oh, yeah, that'll be an improvement!). Actually seek help, instead of "blathering" here. Post what is on your system here and see if anyone has any ideas that might help you. Go to an Apple Store and see what a tech says about your issues. Get some help and then report here. Do a fresh, clean install and see if it helps. Run some utilities and see if you find an issue. Installing a new OS can lead to issues that are not related to the OS itself (if, say, your HD or logic board are marginal, a new OS may just finish them off).

As to "Well, first of all any statistics gathered here are not even remotely relevant. I don’t need to prove anything. It seems that you are the one in need of proof that Lion is a good OS. " Of course statistics gathered here are relevent. They show clearly that saying something is so does not make it so. If you don't like the statistics, do some actual research and find some that refute mine. And, yes, YOU need to prove your opinion is correct. Otherwise, it is just your opinion. You may not like my findings, but, so far, you have made no effort to disprove. them. Or, saying it ain't so does not make it not so.

"Yet, show me even one post from a high end user that is happy with Lion." Dr. Head.

You've got one now!

Come on, give me a break! We've been in business since 2003 and installed Lion on all production machines on day one. Without a single issue!

Don't tell me about people who can't run AppleWorks or Office 2004. If you make your living on a Macintosh based shop you MUST keep up to date with the latest of every application you use.

People whine that they have to upgrade. A new MS Office comes out once in a blue moon and you can get it for less that $100 on eBay. The latest upgrade to InDesign is $199, and that happens every 18 months or so. If you're in business that's a tiny cost over the years.

Thanks Apple, I've been a happy Mac user since the beginning. My 1984 Mac still runs perfectly... and if I have the occasional issue with a new OS then I've been fortunate to always find a workaround.

Any statistician will tell you statistics here are meaningless. They clearly show nothing significant. Just as I thought, your ranting goes on and again your own words belie you, “They show clearly that saying something is so does not make it so.” Ha. I am quite familiar with statistics and research. Refute what? You have blundered around in here trying to make an argument out of data which actually proves nothing.

I have spent hours on the phone with Apple tech, I’ve posted elsewhere in here problems which were not apparent until I pointed them out and demonstrated them to problem solvers who said they see what I mean. I am not encouraged to run anything by you or to waste my time on your fallacious arguments. I expect you will have another lengthy, pointless diatribe to follow this. And Lion will still be a failure and a hindrance to productivity.

Apple Works and Office 2004, well I guess you showed me what a high end user is. I'm impressed -- hear that Dude? You got an actual high end user who likes Lion and uses MS Office. I guess we should all be as fortunate as Mr. America and have a flawless Lion with which to work. Must be missing something, huh? Maybe I should have said show me two.

R C-R wrote:

The post hoc fallicy is to assume that just because some event occurs immediately after some other event, the first event must of necessity be the cause of the second one.

Where did you get your education in computers? You may be amusing yourself by trying to construct philosophical arguments, but it is a standard practice when troubleshooting computer problems that occur after something has been changed to first suspect the last thing that was changed, especially if it was the only thing that was changed.

I haven't "showed" anybody anything. I never said I have used AppleWorks or Office 2004, well I used Office many years back.

If you "need" to use those apps don't upgrade.

If you need to make a living... upgrade.

Yep- you are right and everybody else, all 4.9999 +/- million happy Lion users, are wrong. And please don't tell us what you are doing because we clearly don't have the knowledge or ability to help you.

You just keep right on telling us how wrong we are because you say so, and we must believe what you say because, well, you say it.