DON'T UPDATE TO LION!

The Dude Abides wrote:

You just keep right on telling us how wrong we are because you say so, and we must believe what you say because, well, you say it.

Read your own posts, dude. You are the one doing that. You keep telling people who have problems since the Lion upgrade that there is nothing wrong with Lion. That's a hard sell for those of us who actually do have problems with Lion. You (and a few others) just don't get it. Such mindless efforts to defend Lion by arguing with those of us who have real, frustrating problems since "upgrading" are simply foolish.

This was meant for Dude, sorry.

Any statistician will tell you statistics here are meaningless. They clearly show nothing significant. Just as I thought, your ranting goes on and again your own words belie you, “They show clearly that saying something is so does not make it so.” Ha. I am quite familiar with statistics and research. Refute what? You have blundered around in here trying to make an argument out of data which actually proves nothing.

I have spent hours on the phone with Apple tech, I’ve posted elsewhere in here problems which were not apparent until I pointed them out and demonstrated them to problem solvers who said they see what I mean. I am not encouraged to run anything by you or to waste my time on your fallacious arguments. I expect you will have another lengthy, pointless diatribe to follow this. And Lion will still be a failure and a hindrance to productivity.

Dr.Head wrote:

Any statistician will tell you statistics here are meaningless.

No one here knows what the relevant statistics are. Apple doesn't disclose statistics regarding failure rates or support requests, so no one participating in this discussion has any basis to make any statistical claims that are relevant.

What happens far too often, unfortunately, is that some of those who should know better spend far too much time attacking people for criticizing Apple or Apple products when they are frustrated over the problems they are experienceing with them. It is one of the more unseemly characterstics of the forums here that I expect will continue unabated for as long as Apple remains committed to running the forums like a high school clique.

You are exactly right on both points. Spot on. Could not have been put any better than that.

capaho wrote:

Where did you get your education in computers? You may be amusing yourself by trying to construct philosophical arguments, but it is a standard practice when troubleshooting computer problems that occur after something has been changed to first suspect the last thing that was changed, especially if it was the only thing that was changed.

Yes, but you cannot confuse commonality with causality.

For example, whenever there's an OS upgrade, many people complain that the new OS broke their hard drive, or caused some panic when in reality the actual cause was a hardware issue that is just exacerbated by the way the new OS uses the hardware.

For example, if you have bad RAM, such that a memory location corrupts values, if that memory location was used for something innocuous in Snow Leopard but holds a vital instruction or jump target in Lion, your machine will start falling over in Lion where it ran Snow Leopard just fine, and blaming Lion would be the wrong conclusion to jump to.

Yes, but if, if, huh?

If the OS is faulty and the hardware is healthy then would it not follow that the software is suspect?

OSX Lion (10.7.1), new iMac 27", everything is fully working except connecting to AD domain and grafic interface for wine utilities.

Now imagine your next 27 inch iMac with iOS X10.8 and a touch screen.

Welcome to the future of Apple iStress.

iStress is now on my work. I'm a designer but when my chief bought me iMac and his MacBook Air, iPhone, iPad... I just wanna kill myself, or those people who don't like crossplatforming. We all are in Windows AD in our company, and except me nobody knows about macs more.

So my work now isn't with Adobe and Wacom but with UNIX command line, console, vmachines, wine, RDPs, fine-tuning macos network settings and so on.

Everything had been started when I have installed macos on my PC a few years ago...

Sounds horrible to me, especially the Windows stuff, I hate PCs.

Too bad you're also stuck with Lion, another horror.

I can't imagine mixing all that junk together. I'd be suicidal.

Still, it's better than knocking over liqueur stores, I guess. :-(

I am using Lion for "work" on two machines and

have not had any issues and have no change

in my workflow whatsoever. The issue with Apple

apps with versioning, etc. don't exist as I don't

use any of them. Launchpad, ignore it. Beyond

that, I dont see any differences in working with Lion

or Snow Leopard except somewhat better performance

and using Mission Control instead of Spaces on

occasion.

On my Mac Mini, there were major issues, but

they are all fixed now.

I agree though, that some people are having functional

problems. Most can be solved, some are real head

scratchers, and yes, some are OS bugs.

As I stated somewhere before, if your driving

along and your car stops running, ranting and

raving doesn't get it back on the road, asking for

and getting help does. After that if all avenues

for repair have been investigated and it takes

a part from the factory to fix it, you use an old loaner

until it does get fixed.

William Kucharski wrote:

Yes, but you cannot confuse commonality with causality.

However, some people here seem to confuse philosophical logic with computer logic. In my many years of experience in the computer business, the last thing that was changed before a problem started almost always turns out to be the cause of the problem.

capaho wrote:

Where did you get your education in computers? You may be amusing yourself by trying to construct philosophical arguments, but it is a standard practice when troubleshooting computer problems that occur after something has been changed to first suspect the last thing that was changed, especially if it was the only thing that was changed.

Pointing out the logical fallacy of post hoc reasoning is not a "philosophical argument," as anyone with a decent education in logic or computer science should know.

To make it perfectly clear, while it certainly is common practice to first suspect the last thing changed, a suspicion is just the starting point for sound troubleshooting because it would be very foolish to ignore every other possible cause, or base a diagnosis on an unproven suspicion. You still have to test that suspicion -- otherwise it is nothing more than a guess.

For example, it is well known that different OS versions store executable code in different locations in RAM. Because of this easily verified fact, even a single bad memory cell in the billions in your Mac may never cause any noticeable problems with one OS version yet cause significant ones with another. If you ignore that possibility by never testing the RAM, you can never be sure your suspicion is right.

Likewise, it is well known that file system problems like cross-linked files usually go undetected until they damage critical files, & that the damage is caused by writing new files or updating existing ones in the affected part of the file system. Because upgrading the OS does a huge amount of this, it is quite likely it will reveal this kind of problem even though it is not the cause of it. Moreover, file system problems can develop at any time from a variety of causes. If you don't test for that, you have no sure way of knowing if it exists & is causing some or all of your problems.

It all boils down to this: you can amuse yourself making guesses or you can test for problems known to cause issues, using tools & techniques designed for that purpose. It should not take much education, computer or otherwise, to decide which is the better approach.

Your line of reasoning is simply not logical:

Mac was stable under Snow Leopard

Mac was upgraded to Lion

Mac now has problems under Lion that it didn't have under Snow Leopard

Mac probably has bad RAM

D'oh!

capaho wrote:

Your line of reasoning is simply not logical:

It is not logical in the simplistic way you are interpreting it. You seem to have some trouble understanding that if there are several possible causes for an issue, it is not logical to just pick one & say that must be the culprit.

That applies to bad RAM, bugs in the OS, HD corruption, or anything else.