About the little scrollbar arrows...

Pete, I respect your arguments (although to be honest I think the way you are making them comes across a bit too much like unhelpful mockery) but I think you also make a mistake in describing us as being 'extremely few'. In fact, Snow Leopard users were still the biggest group of North American Mac users as late as April this year with 35% of users, easily outnumbering Lion users. That's hardly a small number.

http://chitika.com/os-x-version-distribution

I have a hunch that useability options like scroll arrows are part of the reason because it sure isn't price (with the prices of Lion and Mountain Lion being so incredibly low, and now Mavericks being free).

You're 100% entitled to LOL as much as you want, but you might be surprised that Apple isn't laughing. In fact, it appears to be a bit embarrassing for them that so many Apple users are so determined to stick with Snow Leopard. The reason is because it makes it harder for developers and also for Apple to cater to Apple users if their OS is fragmented that way. I reverted back to Snow Leopard - the first time I've gone backwards in 20 years of using Apple products. I don't even use scroll arrows very much either. But on the 30 or 40 times a day I do they are totally worth it.

I don't want to sound all anti-Apple either because that's just as boring as pro-Apple mockery. I love my iPad. But if it was not for our heavy investments in Mac software licenses then many users like myself would have jumped to Linux or Windows by now due to usability issues like this one.

@Antony the Translator, thank you for your great suggestion regarding the track pad. It's really nice to read suggestions like that. I'll give one a go next time I'm at an Apple store.

Wonderful. This issue is three years old. Why was ML the most downloaded OSX? Except by the Nth Americans of course. Lion wasn't around long enough to impact much. But good luck to you, I'm sure your compelling arguement will have Apple reinstalling the arrows tomorrow.

Cheers

Pete

Haha I just told my dad the scroll bar arrows are gone. He didn't upgrade his system yet and didn't know. He yelled noooo you're kidding me! I can't believe they don't have the arrows anymore. I am NOT switching to the new system! (his computer is right before they got rid of the arrows and not that old.) He also said "they've had a lot of $#@! changes lately". (Although sleepy and wouldn't normally say that I don't think) That it helps apple but the changes don't help us. I had no idea he didn't know the scroll bar arrows were gone. After this whole thread his reaction was so funny. He was soooo angry. Anyway it's also kind of funny but not that everyone I know is holding on to their old systems - Itunes, system 6, this scroll bar issue. I had called someone and mentioned I went back to an old Itunes and they were so jealous until I told them I could help them turn back. I guess I kind of agree with my dad that there have been a lot of crap changes lately. But Apple will still be getting my business unfortunately but still glad I'm not on android. 🙂

Yep my dad is still on Snow Leopard and doesn't want to upgrade. My mom is so wanting this new system like yesterday but thinks it will fix things that I know it won't so she'll just be angry again. I have learned to revert to old versions of some things but not the arrows-my main concern as I keep saying because I use excel and need them for work. Although at one job where I use excel I have an older mac so they are still there. The other one I'm on my new retina macbook. I can see why 30% still use Snow Leopard. I would say maybe it's just my family but it's friends too. Things like the new Itunes. Even my boss will say that people just have to get used to it. Nice thing to say about a product. Just wait and you'll eventually get used to it. Problem is it keeps being said and it's not happening. If I went around with a petition for people to sign I could get 9/10 of everyone of my friends and family to sign it. Having people complain to Apple by having to email or contact them online they don't do.

Very noble of you. Good luck with that but probably should have started that three years ago. The many many millions of users on Mountain Lion do not seem to have issues, only the handful in this little thread and one or two like it. But as I said, good luck with your petition.

Pete

I just said they could create a petition which I also said probably wouldn't work. It was just a suggestion to them and the Mountain Lion users are using the system that came on their computer probably. As I said almost all of the people I know have issues with recent apple "updates." The one who doesn't sells Apple products so who knows their true feelings. In fact both companies I work for use Macs and my coworker prefers to use my old imac over her new less than a year old computer! When I'm not at work she uses my older imac and hates that she can't use it when I'm there. There are a lot of things people might not see. If they don't know anything better than why would they complain? All I know is EVERYONE I know has issues with some of the new updates and I guess they just complain to me and not Apple.

No, Mountain Lion was the most downloaded OSX in Apples history, soon, by the looks of things, to be overtaken by Mavericks. Oddly enough, I know of no one I'm the Mac Environment that are having any issues at all with the last three OSXs.

Cheers

Pete

Trackpads are great, really great, if you are physically able to use one....

This is what I use:

http://www.traxsys.com/AssistiveTechnology/Trackballs/RollerPlusTrackball/tabid/ 1418/Default.aspx

Try using that with large Excel sheets or Word documents in anything above 10.6 and you are up **** creek without a paddle.

Yes, disabled people may be in the minority, but we still have public buses with ramps on, vibrating pads under traffic light buttons, ramps for trains, and textured pavements at crossings. Just because "we" are in the minority, it doesn't mean that society and large companies have to increase our disabilities (do a search for "social model of disability") by removing or not doing seemingly small things. The fact that some non-disabled people may not like such things is basically tough ****. I don't like the lack of dropped curbs on street corners, but I have to cope with it in a wheelchair day in, day out, so I am quite sure that you can cope with seeing an option to reinstate the old scroll bar and arrows when you enter System Prefs. It wouldn't put you in hospital or anything like that...

Having an accessible operating system by having a few additional options is something that Apple and other companies have to get used to. I do not for one minute accept that Apple may be unable to reinstate the old scroll bar as an option. They will still have the coding for it, and if they say that they can't use it to create an option in System Prefs, they need to get some new developers as in terms of writing an entire OS, that is a piece of cake. What do I do in the future when hardware manufacturers stop writing device drivers for 10.6?

Have you not thought of that?

I employ six part time staff, do my own payroll, tax etc, and have to navigate around some pretty large Excel spreadsheets and FileMaker Pro databases that I have created. I would love to upgrade to Maverick, but would be unable to navigate around my vital spreadsheets and other documents.

As my money is the same colour as anybody else's, I have an issue with that.

Sarah

Apple should bring back the previous scroll arrow interface: scroll bars on all Finder and appliation windows. At least as an option. The same for the Finder color labels.

Apple, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Pete,

about this issue as I have a disability affecting my arm control, and am not prepared to see Apple treat disabled and non disabled customers who don't like the new scroll bar as if we do not exist. Over the years, I and tens of thousands of customers have spent too much money with Apple to be ignored like this. Their attitude absolutely stinks and they need to do a SWOT Analysis on this issue quite quickly, using this forum for the data needed.

We keep these people in jobs and Apple need to start remembering that. I'm sure we can ensure that that happens...

Have a good Christmas!

Sarah

Cornwall, England

<Email Edited By Host>

They do not use these forums for any analysis. You need to retread the Terms Of Use you agreed to when you joined these forums.

Three OSXs in a row. No return to those old arrows. This thread has well run its course.

Merry Cristmas

Pete

Dear Apple software development team.

I know that you did away with the scroll bar arrows, thinking that OS X should look like an iPad and all cool and trendy, but first big mistake: Apple laptops and desktops ain't iPads, and ain't got touchscreens. Accept the fact - desktops and laptops running OS X ain't iPads. If somebody buys a laptop or desktop, it isn't because they want an expensive "wannabe iPod". Accept and move on.

The second thing that I should not need to tell you is that OS X has "System Preferences" which contains lots and lots of options as not every "wage paying customer" likes exactly the same options selected. For example, not a high percentage of your "wage paying customers" will need to use VoiceOver, but you don't take it avay as an option for that reason. Likewise, not every "wage paying customer" will use a bight green plain desktop, but you haven't made it impossible to do so.

Three. Accessibility has always been a priority for Apple. Has this changed? Is the money of physically disabled people a different colour? Does accessibility not mean "ease of use" for everybody? Have you ever tried navigating a large spreadsheet without the scroll bar arrows? Its not easy.

Reversing the decision to axe the scroll bar arrows was clearly a mistake. We all know that. Because of that, bringing them back as an option won't be seen as some of "sign of weakness".

I look forward to the original scroll bar returning as an option, even if it is under the category of accessibility, rather than a "general optional".

Can't wait for the "update".

Sarah

That horse isn't dead - only sleeping.

BTW stop being nasty to a person who has a genuine disability.

To which I would add that since I have an injury to my index finger, I will not ever be able to use a trackpad or a touch screen.

Apple needs to understand that not all users have perfect control of every bodily function required to use their computer hardware.

Good luck for your future health and here's hoping nothing gets injured that might impede your ability to use your computer.

Over and out - dead thread.

As a disabled person whose computer is now less accessible than when it was purchased (as a direct result of action taken by Apple), I am not letting this drop as UK law is on my side. My approach to this has now changed to take this into account and I AM NOT BACKING DOWN OR TAKING THIS. I can't drag up and down the new scroll bar using my trackerball due to having cerebral palsy, and using cursor keys doesn't offer the level of control over very large spreadsheets as the normal scroll bars offered. My patience snapped today and my argument has now left the confines of this forum. I have been using computers since they were huge things being tried out by disabled children in the early 1970's with men in suits from IBM coming to get feedback. Since then, I have always used computers, have worked in education / assistive technology, and can say that I have NEVER seen such a sudden decline in accessibility / general ease of use. Whoever thought that making Mac OS X look and feel like iOS (which has what has caused this problem) has just about enough business foresight as Gerald Ratner on a bad day. I'm not taking it any more, so am taking this beyond this forum now. Goodbye all, it's been nice talking to most of you! Sarah

Exactly. The problem is twofold:

- The iOS interface RUINS the Mac interface. They should have different interfaces.

- Functionality would be above appearance, and not the other way round both for software and also for hardware.

Apple should understand thee basic rules. And last but not least, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Hopefully, Apple will listen.