keyboard line out and griffin imic incompatibility?

I'm getting horrible background noise when I try to record my keyboard (Yamaha PSR-225GM ) headphone line out through my Griffin iMic into Garageband. I assume it's a level issue but even the keyboard volume control won't fix the problem nor will system settings for the input device. My Sony stereo mic into the same iMic input sounds fine. Headphones attached to the keyboard line out sound fine too so I don't believe it's a quality problem with the line out. Can one not use a headphone output into the Griffin iMic?

If not, anyone got suggestions for higher quality audio input into the iMic flat panel (e.g. some USB box) that's compatible with various audio equipment (mics, keyboards, guitar amps, 1/4" and 1/8" and RCA plugs etc.)? The iMic has served me fine, but maybe it's time to start looking for something higher quality, and more versatile. Thanks.

By the way, anyone know why sometimes there's a delay (half second or so) between audio in and the monitors in Garageband, and sometimes not? It makes performance nearly impossible when there's such a big delay.

SJG

iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

Posted on Jan 26, 2006 1:39 PM

Reply
9 replies

Jan 26, 2006 2:26 PM in response to Stephen Guimond

Make sure the little switch on the iMic is towards the mic icon, this puts it in Line-Level mode (the other was is Mic-level)

Also, make sure the keyboard volume is very low or even all the way off, then slowly bring it up (headphone-level is hotter than Line-Level, so start of slow)

Here are a few interfaces, among many:

http://www.thehangtime.com/gb/gbfaq2.html#interfaces

--HangTime [Will Compute for Food] B-|>

Jan 26, 2006 9:23 PM in response to HangTime

Thanks for your response. I took a quick look at the equipment list you referenced and I see a lot I can use there. Thanks.

I've tried both switch positions on the iMic and still have noise. Your suggestion of bringing it up from absolutely no volume has helped (making me think the Griffin iMic is autogaining), but there's still a lot of hiss (though a lot less than when I first asked the original question). The iMic has some auto gain that's adding hiss? It's WAY more hiss than I hear through the headphones plugged into the same jack of the keyboard so that's why I think it must be the iMic circuitry - a different gain stage for the level coming out of the keyboard is noisier than the gain stage used for the lower levels on my Sony mic. You think that's what's going on?

Thanks for the interface suggestions. I'll be shopping in the next couple weeks.

SJG

Jan 26, 2006 11:43 PM in response to Stephen Guimond

The iMic is a very inexpensive interface. As I recall the Griffin FAQ was rather humorous, there were questions about the quality of the PREs and the answer were "It costs $35!". IOW, you're getting what you paid for.

I used an iMic for several months and rather enjoyed what I was able to do for barely a handful of bills.

However when we later moved on to a high quality (and high priced) interface I was blown away by the difference.

The noise floor on the iMic is rather high, there is always a bg hiss. Using a high quality interface, if there's no noise in the room, there is no noise on the recording.

So while I'm really guessing since I haven't heard your recordings, I'd say "yes", if you want top notch recordings, you'll need to buy a better interface.

--HangTime [Will Compute for Food] %-|>

Jan 27, 2006 12:36 AM in response to HangTime

HangTime -
Thanks once again. After some reading, I'm beginning to see a few points that I didn't previously realize were important. I'd appreciate it if you or anyone else could tell me if I'm on the right track on the following theories (I don't know if the following are TRUE):

1) The quater-inch headphone output from the Yamaha keyboard is neither "balanced" nor impedance matched to the Griffin iMic. (I'm using a 1/4" to 2.5 mm converter cable). I am possibly getting radio interference (I DID get a local radio station when I touched the plug right!!) and degrading the signal because of these two issues.

2) It may be necessary to put the signal from my keyboard's headphone jack into a DI (direct box) to get impedance matched to mixer levels - the levels I assume the Griffin iMic expects.

3) I'm HOPING that a high quality audio-to-USB (or firewire) input box can perform the job of the direct box.

Finally, if anyone can give me the list of equipment in order from a keyboard to Garageband, I'd appreciate it since it'll let me know if I'm on the right track with the direct box and all that.

Thanks!

SJG

iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

Jan 27, 2006 8:33 AM in response to Stephen Guimond

tell me if I'm on the right track on the
following theories (I don't know if the following are TRUE):


I'll do the best I can...

1) The quater-inch headphone output from the Yamaha
keyboard is neither "balanced"


Correct, the headphone-out is not balanced. A balanced output uses 3 wires, a graound, a hot, and another hot that's 180° out of phase with the first. This is a neat trick in that two signals 180° out of phase with each other cancel each other out sp you get zero signal. In the case of a balanced out if noise is introduced, it is in phase on both cables. On the other end when the signal on the out of phase wire has its phase flipped, your original signal is now in phase on both legs, and the noise is 180° out of phase with itself, and thus is canceled out.

nor impedance matched
to the Griffin iMic.


The impedance is not a problem here. As I understand it, the headphone-out is High Impedance, and so is the iMic's In.

(I'm using a 1/4" to 2.5 mm
converter cable). I am possibly getting radio
interference (I DID get a local radio station when I
touched the plug right!!) and degrading the signal
because of these two issues.


Possible. A Low quality cable and or adaptor could offer an entry point for noise.

2) It may be necessary to put the signal from my
keyboard's headphone jack into a DI (direct box) to
get impedance matched to mixer levels - the levels I
assume the Griffin iMic expects.


No, this shouldn't be true. A headphone-out is actually much hotter than a Line-In, so the level should be able to offer more than enough signal, and the impedance is matched.

3) I'm HOPING that a high quality audio-to-USB (or
firewire) input box can perform the job of the direct
box.


It could, but the weak point I see is that you're stuck using a headphone-out instead of a Line-Out. I don't think a DI box is going to help any in comparison.

Hmmm, I just glanced at your computer list. Doesn't the iMac have a Line-In jack? Have you tried skipping the iMic and going straight into the iMac?

Finally, if anyone can give me the list of equipment
in order from a keyboard to Garageband


I think it could be Keyboard -> Mac

Other combinations would just be sticking an interface between the two (Keyboard->interface->Mac)

Jan 27, 2006 1:19 PM in response to HangTime

Thanks again Hangtime.

It's clear I've got some homework to do, and headphone out is not the ideal signal (my keyboard only has MIDI IN, MIDI OUT and PHONES/AUX OUT), so I'm calling this closed. However the conversation has left me with a few last questions I need to learn outside the Garageband forum:

1) If it's not an impedance issue, but a signal balance issue, then my Sony stereo mic (with its 2.5 mm jack, three conductors) doesn't look balanced either (since stereo would require 5 conductors in a balanced system, right?) but it doesn't have this problem. Does that lead us to a shielding issue somehow?

2) The imac flatpanel does not have a direct audio in (a disappointment to a lot of us Mac users when it came out). I'm stuck with audio-to-USB or audio-to-firewire as far as I know. That said, what did you mean by "sticking an interface between the two (keyboard and computer). You mean like the iMic or the, for example, the MobilePre USB audio interface? I'm heading that direction at this point. I'm just concerned that another interface will handle the PHONES/AUX OUT just as badly because it's not a standard signal for sound recording (but in fact intended to drive headphone speakers). Is there a reason to believe it will handle the signal better than the iMic? Or should I be getting a keyboard with a "proper" line out?

I'm done bugging you now. Thanks!!

SJG




iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

Jan 27, 2006 2:09 PM in response to Stephen Guimond

only has MIDI IN, MIDI OUT and PHONES/AUX OUT),


I'm intrigued that the jack is labeled both PHONE a well as AUX. An AUX out is generally a Line-Level out.


1) If it's not an impedance issue, but a signal
balance issue, then my Sony stereo mic (with its 2.5
mm jack, three conductors) doesn't look balanced
either (since stereo would require 5 conductors in a
balanced system, right?) but it doesn't have this
problem. Does that lead us to a shielding issue
somehow?


The mic is almost certainly a high impedance mic, so I'm sure it's not a Lo-Z/HiZ thing. Shielding is a possible cause for noise entering the signal chain, yeah.

2) The imac flatpanel does not have a direct audio in
(a disappointment to a lot of us Mac users when it
came out).


Which model, the Lam-Neck or the newer Looks-like-an-LCD-and-nothing-else?

I'm stuck with audio-to-USB or
audio-to-firewire as far as I know. That said, what
did you mean by "sticking an interface between the
two (keyboard and computer). You mean like the iMic
or the, for example, the MobilePre USB audio
interface?


Yes, the iMic (and MobiePre) are both interfaces.

I'm heading that direction at this point.
I'm just concerned that another interface will handle
the PHONES/AUX OUT just as badly because it's not a
standard signal for sound recording (but in fact
intended to drive headphone speakers). Is there a
reason to believe it will handle the signal better
than the iMic? Or should I be getting a keyboard with
a "proper" line out?


A MobilePre will almost certainly have higher quality A/D converters, but it's really hard to say for certain if it'll help.

Do you by any chance have a sample of your playing somewhere online? Could you upload a small sample somewhere? Perhaps if I can hear exactly what the issue is I can make a better guess.

If you do decide to look for another interface, obviously do some research, but try to find a store (real, or online) that has a liberal return policy.

I'm done bugging you now. Thanks!!


No worries, I enjoy helping out when I can. Musicians are special, and music is magic --Hang

Jan 27, 2006 3:37 PM in response to Stephen Guimond

2) The imac flatpanel does not have a direct audio in
(a disappointment to a lot of us Mac users when it
came out). I'm stuck with audio-to-USB or
audio-to-firewire as far as I know. That said, what
did you mean by "sticking an interface between the
two (keyboard and computer).



Weird... Are you SURE?? My 17" flat panel G4 iMac (with USB 2.0) has a line in.

Jan 28, 2006 12:17 AM in response to HangTime

only has MIDI IN, MIDI OUT and PHONES/AUX OUT),


I'm intrigued that the jack is labeled both PHONE a
well as AUX. An AUX out is generally a Line-Level
out.


Yeah. That's what I thought. That's how it's marked on the Yamaha PSR-225. It's just an amateur level keyboard with what to me was a great piano sound for its price - which was cheapish. Minimum wanted MIDI and a grand piano sound that didn't stink.

2) The imac flatpanel does not have a direct audio

in
(a disappointment to a lot of us Mac users when it
came out).


Which model, the Lam-Neck or the newer
Looks-like-an-LCD-and-nothing-else?


iMac flatpanel 15" with the swivel neck. To answer Meeker's question - I'm no Mac expert, but I'm pretty sure that there is no direct audio in to this model. I'd love to be wrong so someone tell me if I'm wrong - and please tell me where to look for the hole!

Do you by any chance have a sample of your playing
somewhere online? Could you upload a small sample
somewhere? Perhaps if I can hear exactly what the
issue is I can make a better guess.


No web site, nuthin aside from emailing an MP3 or Quicktime file. To my ear, here's what's up: 1) Frequency response is crap because the timbre of the piano sound changes completely. 2) LOTS of background hiss. PERHAPS a 60 Hz hum in there too (and its overtones??) Signal-to-noise goes to crap. 3) I think it's clipping too (levels too high??). I'm a physicist with an oscilloscope in the garage... maybe it's time for me to poke around a little with some real EQUIPMENT! 🙂

If you do decide to look for another interface,
obviously do some research, but try to find a store
(real, or online) that has a liberal return policy.


The keyboard's portable - I'm taking it into the store!

Thanks!

SJG



iMac flatpanel 15 Mac OS X (10.3.9)

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keyboard line out and griffin imic incompatibility?

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