Shoot both 50 Hz and 60 Hz HD, which camera w FCP?

Question

Shoot both 50 Hz and 60 Hz HD, which camera w FCP?

Hi again, Guys.

In a prior discussion I started, asking about a good modest priced HD camera that would output files that would work well with FCP, the consensus was that the Panasonic HMC-40 was a good choice at a modest price for shooting HD material that would be cut on FCP 7. Sadly, I neglected to say, when I started the discussion, that ideally I need to shoot both in the US and the UK. i.e. at 60 Hz and at 50 Hz respectively. When I researched the Panasonic HMC-40 I was told that it could not switch between 60 and 50 Hz. But that the next camera up COULD switch. That camera is the AG HMC 151 E. I was told this by a Panasonic rep in the UK. But the problem is that I would like to puchase the camera in the US. The US model is the AG HMC 150. And that model it seems DOESN'T switch between 60 and 50 Hz. It only shoots 60. (Why Panasonic has done this is a mystery to me.)

On a tech discussion group about HD shooting, one person said that the problem with shooting 60 Hz in the UK is mainly lighting, e.g. if you are shooting with florescent light in the UK, you might get flicker if you use a 60Hz camera in the UK. So my questions are:

1) If I am shooting in the UK with a 60 Hz camera (i.e. a camera I have purchsed in the US that is not switchable) what are the biggest problems?

Is it only if I were shooting in florescent light, or is the quality overall a big problem.

2) If I shoot 60 Hz but am shooting in the UK, can I use FCP to convert the 60 Hz materail to 50 Hz and will that solve any image problems?

3) Now that I have mentioned that I would like to be able to shoot in the UK and US with the same camera, but that I want to buy the camera in the US, does anyone have another recommendation of a camera that is in the $2,000. range that would serve this purpose and still create files that would work well in FCP 7?

Do Sony or Canon address this switchable 60/50 Hz issue more effectively than Panasonic? In the earlier discussion, it was noted that Panasonic cameras created files that were easiest to use with FCP.

I am sure I have said things here that reveal how unknowledgeable I am about shooting HD. But this will be my first camera purchase after having been an editor for over 10 years. Any advice most welcome, and thanks in advance.

Posted on Oct 8, 2011 8:14 AM

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Answer 1

Jim Cookman

Level 7

23,447 points

Oct 8, 2011 8:53 AM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

You can probably get the 151 at B&H in New York, or from their website.

It's relatively easy to do that conversion in Compressor, or Graeme Nattress makes a WONDERFUL converter plug for FCP. It takes a while but the results are stunning.

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Answer 2

Oct 9, 2011 10:04 AM in response to Jim Cookman

Thanks, Jim. I've spoken to B&H. They don't sell the Panasonic 151 but highly reommeneded HM 100 JVC, which they say is MORE compatible with Final Cut (native .mov files created by camera) and is switchable 50 / 60 Hz. Does anyone have any knowledge of this JVC HM 100 camera? Opinions? Thanks in advance.

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Answer 3

Meg The Dog

Level 6

13,826 points

Oct 9, 2011 12:16 PM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

Are you actually going to shoot in PAL and NTSC? Are you editing two different projects?

If your concern is about then strobing that results with shooting NTSC when lit with 50hz fluorescent lights, then you need a camera with automatic scan correction.

MtD

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Answer 4

Oct 9, 2011 2:24 PM in response to Meg The Dog

Some of my clients are US based and some are UK based. I produce projects for both US and UK markets. Thus I would like a camera that can shoot projects for both markets.

Actually one of my questions is, if I shoot a UK project with a 60Hz setting is strobing with florescent lights my only concern? From what I have read so far, the implication is that there are more issues than just shooting with florescent lighting, when that is unavoidable.

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Answer 5

Oct 9, 2011 11:55 PM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

Power across the pond is 50Hz. That means anything electronic that remains AC will happen different - lights, displays, CRT motors, chargers, transformers, if it's electronic and it doesn't go to DC first it won't be the same. Having not gone through it I can't tell you what the visual difference is, but I can say if I were being paid to shoot something in the UK I would sooner rent gear than gamble someone else's money on shooting at 60Hz.

I know workflow has been a concern of yours, so I'll preface this by saying HDSLR workflow is a pain to say the least. That caveat up front said I have a $1,000 Canon 60D on my desk that does 1080p at 30, 25, and 24 and 720p at 60 and 50. Just switch the video system from NTSC to PAL in a setup menu and different rates are available - which is a bit of a misnomer since it's HD. (NTSC and PAL designations only apply to SD.) Of course you need to buy glass, audio gear, and some grip for an HDSLR to be a video rig, but that could be an affordable method. Worth noting - the camera won't record audio worth using, you'll need to record your audio separate and then sync in post. If it's an interview where you sync once for 20 minutes of video it might not be an issue, if it's a bunch of b-roll requires sound sync you'll have a lot to organise and you'll be kicking yourself every step of the way for going this way. This isn't a video camera, but depending on what you're shooting it could be the tool for the job.

For simple workflow in FCP the JVC HM-100 is the best choice imaginable. A local tv station deployed a handfull of them and I've heard good things from the engineers (they haven't broken down yet) and the reporter or two I've come by has liked them. I picked one up about two months ago - amazingly small - but I haven't shot with them. I wouldn't expect much from a 1/4 inch sensor in low light, so if that's your game rent before buying to make sure the performance will be acceptable for your work.

A last thought to consider:

Not sure what you're shooting, but it could be an option to shoot everything at 24/25p then conform a frame up/down when you need to cross over? The 1 frame difference isn't perceived by the viewer.

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Answer 6

Oct 10, 2011 5:32 AM in response to soundman1024

Thank you.

First to clarify, I am writing all of this in the FCP discussion because the issue of compatibility / easy work flow from the camera to FCP is of paramount importance to me relative to the puchase of this camera.

I do now understand that the price point needs to be higher. I am now looking at up to $3,000. I was told about the JVC HM 100 in terms of creating files that FCP works with natively but because of the 1/4" sensor it seems that the camera requires high light levels to create a good image. So that camera seems problematic.

I have now had recommendations of other cameras, such as the Sony HXR-NX5E, but it seems that ALL cameras I have looked at have a EUROPEAN version that does 50 Hz and 60 Hz, and that the US version only does 60 Hz, thus making it impossible to buy a camera in the US that does both. Unless, as was also recommended to me by B&H, I go to a company like Panasonic and pay them to alter the camera purchased in the US so that it has 50 and 60 Hz.

WHY do these companies make a camera that they sell in Europe that has 50 and 60 Hz, but the camera they sell in the US has only 60Hz?

The Canon XF 100 was also recommended, but I was told the files it creates are MXF, and that you have to use a plug in provided by Canon to make the files usable in FCP. That soulds problematic to me. Does anyone agree?

Thank you for your help.

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Answer 7

Oct 12, 2011 6:03 AM in response to Jim Cookman

Hi Jim:

I looked at the Nattress software, and it is very interesting. Though the process is a bit complex for my moderate level of FCP competency.

After continued research I am still finding it hard to locate a camera I am happy with and that I can afford that will shoot both 50hz and 60 hz. Which leads me to this question:

If I buy the camera in the UK and that camera only shoots 50hz (not switchable to 60 hz), and I have to shoot a project for a US client, does it matter if I shoot in 50 hz and edit in a compatible FCP timeline for 50 hz IF the end delivery of the program is only on the web? i.e. it will not be presented through a television, it will only be seen on a computer monitor?

Or is shooting 50 hz for a project that is to be viewed, in ANY way, in the US, always going to be a problem, unless I convert the footage?

Any thoughts from anyone on this much appreciated!

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Answer 8

Oct 12, 2011 7:43 AM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

Paula, if it were me I would buy the camera I need for the country I am in, where I assume you would do most of the shooting, and rent, either with or without a cameraman in the region you shoot the least. The possibilty of shooting bad footage in a region you don't understand is not worth it to me. You can rent a camera for $250.00 to $500.00 per day depending on what camera you use and where.

The reason the manufacturers don't make switchable cameras in that price range is because it is not cost-effective and they can sell twice as many cameras.

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Answer 9

Oct 12, 2011 4:18 PM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

XF100 is a pretty good little camera. Again, a camera I regularly use. Ergonomics are excellent except for the single ring on the lens. It has a switch adjacent to it to go between zoom, focus, and iris. The ring on the lens is a bit clunky because of the switch, but otherwise excellent. The CF cards are far more affordable than the P2 cards you'd need for Panasonic HVX, which drops your total cost of ownership. At highest quality you'll get 40 minutes on a 16gb card, 81 on a 32gb, and 162 on a 64gb. Make sure the CF cards you get ar at least 400x speed. The .mxf files it creates are XDCAM at to 50mbps - previously unheard of at this price point. That simply translates to a lot more detail. I decided Canon XF cameras would be the right tool for our shop, and having used them I still recommend them.

To work in Final Cut you'll need the Log and Transfer plugin, which is here:

http://software.canon-europe.com/software/0040354.asp?model=

Be sure to look for Shane Ross' tapeless workflow tutorial if you aren't familiar with tapeless. Googling it is absolutely worthwhile. He explains how to get it into Final Cut, but more importantly how to properly backup your footage. Remember, your backup drive and your capture scratch drive have to be separate for backing up to be worthwhile.

Last thing I've got is for added stability I recommend going to the Gear -> Preferences on the Log and Transfer window and switching Canon XF to ProRes422 (not LT or HQ). If you're just putting in cuts bringing it in native can save disc space, but I found that if you're going beyond cutting and compositing in graphics or adding filters Final Cut quickly becomes unstable with the native XDCAM HD422 footage. Changing to ProRes takes a little more space, but the added stability that results will pay for the extra disc space in a hurry.

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Answer 10

Oct 13, 2011 3:06 AM in response to soundman1024

Thanks for this very helpful info. In a separate discussion Shane did share that tutorial. Obviously that is crucial.

Reading reviews of the XF100 recently, I saw several comments stating that it did not perform too well in low light. Much of my work is in natural light. I don't even own a light kit. So that was a concern. Do you feel otherwise? After reading about this I started looking at Sony cameras because of the Exmor sensors.

I was also concerned about using the Canon plug in for log and transfer. I am always wary of third party elements in the mix with FCP, where if something goes wrong there is a lot of finger pointing, Apple saying it's the third party element, the third party says it's FCP. In your experience, is the Canon plug in a very reliable tool?

I asked myself why doesn't Final Cut allow for imports from this Canon camera using its own log and transfer tool? Why are all of the other cameras I am looking at in this price range creating AVC HD files that FCP's log and transfer tool handles without a third party plug in.

Perhaps I am wrong in these concerns. Would love to hear that I am!

I am now looking at the Sony HXR-NX70, but sadly, this camera is not switchable 50 / 60 Hz. Yet. It is a new camera and Sony is considering whether it should allow for customers to send the camera in to make it usable worldwide. The Sony HXR NX5E, which is switchable, is beyond my budget. At least the NX70 comes with two XLR inputs and has full control of the audio.

So now I am trying to determine: If I have a camera that only shoots 25 fps / 50 hz, can I in fact use that camera to create content for a US client that will only use that content on the web (i.e. it will not be viewed as broadcast television)

You mention that the The .mxf files the MX100 creates are XDCAM at to 50mbps. I have been trying to understand how the 50 mbps aspect impacts final results. Is there a quick answer to what the concerns are re this aspect on cameras. Appologies for my novice level of knowledge on these things. This is the first camera purchase...

Thanks in advance for any other thoughts you care to share, and thanks again for all of the detailed info you have already provided.

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Answer 11

Russ H

Level 7

22,432 points

Oct 13, 2011 6:24 AM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

Agree with Soundman about the XF100. I have had no problems using the plug-in and L&T to capture ProRes.

As far as its low light performance is concerned, I've recently had to shoot some interviews in partially-enclosed structures where it was impractical to light. The results were acceptable to my purposes - relatively low noise and decent color. I like the camera a lot for the $$$.

Good luck.

Russ

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Answer 12

Oct 13, 2011 8:35 AM in response to Russ H

Hi Soundman and Russ:

OK, you now have me reconsidering the Canon FX100. But unless I am missing something it is only sold as a PAL camera

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/819253-REG/Canon_XF100E_XF100_HD_Professio nal_PAL.html

One of my original aspirations for this camera purchse, along with tolerable work flow with Final Cut, was switchable 50 / 60 hz / fps.

Am I missing something? Is there a US version of the camera that is switchable? The UK version needs to be sent into a repair facility and MIGHT be able to be modified, I am waiting for a call back.

Are both of you in the UK?

Thanks again.

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Answer 13

Oct 13, 2011 10:07 PM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

I'm not too sure what to tell you about the picture quality shy suggesting of renting one. I've given it my recommendation at the $3k price point, I can't do much more.

The workflow is solid if you're using ProRes. Since Final Cut Pro 7 is pretty well set in stone with Final Cut X on the market you don't really have to worry about upgrades breaking compatibility since you don't have to worry about upgrades. If you're worried about them search for problems a few weeks after upgrades come out and upgrade if you don't find issues. If something goes wrong do a Time Machine restore. Pretty standard practice when an upgrade comes out.

Pamela Glintenkamp wrote:

I asked myself why doesn't Final Cut allow for imports from this Canon camera using its own log and transfer tool? Why are all of the other cameras I am looking at in this price range creating AVC HD files that FCP's log and transfer tool handles without a third party plug in.

AVCHD is an extremely compressed, processor intense codec. The XDCAM HD422 codec (a Sony codec used on many higher end Sony cameras) is native to Final Cut, it's the Canon XF wrapper that isn't. Sony usually wraps in .mp4 instead of .mxf. The Log and Transfer plugin teaches it to read the card structure.

The HXR-NX70 seems to lack 1080/30p, a US standard, but has 1080/60p, which I don't believe Final Cut can Log and Transfer. 1080/60p isn't broadcast standard anywhere, and thereby isn't supported. 1080/60 would be great if slow-mo is your deal, but be sure to look into Final Cut compatibility with that frame rate before depending on it. The highest NX70 bitrate at a standard framerate is 24mbps, half of what the Canon XF cameras are shooting. That means have of the detail is being compressed out. If you're treating your colours the difference will be dramatic. In low light it will also be compressing out a lot of noise, so less data may look cleaner. Rule of thumb is higher data rate = good.

Basically you're comparing a high end prosumer camera with a low end professional camera, the codec being the major difference.

You might do best to give B&H a call and have a sales person walk you through the correct purchase. I think talking it out with someone who is informed will help you reach a conclusion.

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Answer 14

Oct 15, 2011 5:05 AM in response to soundman1024

Now on the verge of buying the Canon FX100 based on research, trying camera in showroom and your comments.

Quick question. I run FCP using a MacBook Pro 2.6 Ghz Intel Core Duo processor. Relative to your advise about using Pro Res, will this computer have the power to smoothly run FCP with Pro Res files as you have suggested?

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Answer 15

Russ H

Level 7

22,432 points

Oct 15, 2011 6:42 AM in response to Pamela Glintenkamp

That same processor is in my 15 inch MBP and I have no ProRes issues. It's obviously nowhere near as fast as the new Intel chips and I don't use it for major transcode…unless I have a lot of spare time. But with a reasonably fast FW 800 portable drive it handles the regular flavors of ProRes fine. (I don't have any reason to use Pro Res HQ.)

Good luck.

Russ

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