You can make a difference in the Apple Support Community!

When you sign up with your Apple Account, you can provide valuable feedback to other community members by upvoting helpful replies and User Tips.

📰 Newsroom Update

Billie Eilish is Apple Music’s Artist of the Year for 2024. Learn more >

Looks like no one’s replied in a while. To start the conversation again, simply ask a new question.

Matching digitized vinyl iTunes imports

Really bummed that iTunes match won't match the vinyl albums I digitized and imported into iTunes. All of these albums are currently available through the iTunes music store but just won't match up so I can take advantage of the higher bitrate. This was one of the key selling points for me for the match service.


Anybody have any tips or tricks to make this work? Is it the hiss and pops on the record or speed of the turntable that is affecting the waveform matching?

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 2:32 PM

Reply
63 replies

Dec 16, 2011 10:13 AM in response to JiminMissouri

I haven't used that filter, although it sounds like it does a similar change to what the Normalization effect does. Normalization is basically Amplify + DC offet combined.


Make sense though, if your line-in is causing some problems that you can visibly see in Audacity, as well as hear audibly.





JiminMissouri wrote:


then save as a 24-bit WAV file.

Could you give me some detail on how you're getting 24-bit WAV file out of Audacity? I see a custom option that might get me there,

but I'd like to try and duplicate what you're using. I'm in the process of recording an album, one side at 96, the other at 44 to see

if that makes any difference.



I use 32-bit float in, as you do - but at a sample rate 48khz and not 96khz. I don't use 96khz because I know that my line-in is, at best, 24/48. I'm not even convinced that it's doing true 24/48, but since 24/48 isn't much more storage than 16/44, I've kept it at 48. For a 24-bit wave file output, use "Other Uncompressed Files" and then in Options choose WAV and then Signed 24-bit PCM.


96khz is deceiving - you might think your sound card supports 96khz because Audacity records it as such, but more likely than not it's probably mostly dead space. I've used many tools to try and verify my own setup, and Spek (a Windows tool) was enlightening it's basically a better version of Audacity's spectrogram and gives me a good visual queue if I have data informaton beyond 22khz. Sometimes I do, but I'm convinced that it's just noise and not actual analog waveforms.


When I save up enough money, I plan on buying a better DAC for my needledrops - specifically one that is designed to handle 24/96 in.

Dec 16, 2011 10:07 AM in response to JiminMissouri

Just to add into the technical discussion. I use a tube phono preamp which to my ears makes records sound warmer than a pure digital signal path. Assuming this effect is real (and not just audiophile psychoacoustics!) you would expect a slightly different resulting waveform when everything goes through the ADC into the computer. Which again will lower match's confidence threshold.

As I said above, I refuse to believe match isn't matching our songs when Shazam does it no problem every time. It's just not matching them to the arbitrarily high confidence threshold Apple have set.


Best hope for matching reliably off vinyl is more likely to be a loosened algorithm rather than working out the precise combination of track length, click repair and offset removal... And that's up to Apple.

Dec 16, 2011 10:32 AM in response to magnusbl

I 100% agree about Apple's thresholds. I've actually used SoundHound to match songs via my tablet's mic in, with crapola radio and cassette dubs, and Soundhound matches at least 90% of the time with those (the only time it hasn't is if the tune is so obsure that there's no record of it at all in their database). So I bet there's definitely some wiggle room with their thresholds. But SoundHound isn't offering music downloads, it's just matching and nothing more - so they can set their thesholds very low.


But think about it from the other end. Someone with a lot of time on their hands could take recordings they've created from apps like Youtube, Spotify etc. and use them for matching. Apple is probably required by the RIAA to keep the threshold high enough to filter out these people. But it's likely affecting results for legitimate users as well - not just vinyl users, but even those with CD rips that might have some small defect that's throwing off the matching process.

Dec 16, 2011 10:28 AM in response to Community User

Apple is probably required by the RIAA to keep the threshold high enough to filter out these people.

Exactly. If you're going to give people the opportunity to download thousands of tracks, some of higher quality than they own and you're going to do it for less than my wife and I pay for a dinner out, you can be sure the RIAA's going to force you to set the bar pretty high.


I do agree Apple has likely set it higher than necessary initially and I'm hoping that was intentionally erring on the side of caution. You can work to bring things to a point where more things match, but if you went the other way, let a lot of stuff match that shouldn't then tried to take it all back . . .

Dec 17, 2011 11:41 AM in response to Community User

Based on our discussions, I did some recording yesterday, processed and put to iTunes Match this morning. Still a mixed bag, though several of the albums iTunes doesn't sell so didn't expect any matches there. Interestingly two albums by the same artist matched every track, save one. No match for the very last track. Interesting. The only thing different about the last track is, well, it's the last track! I do tend to add a fadeout on it though, which alters the end and duration a bit. I'll have to toy with that some

Dec 18, 2011 6:53 AM in response to Mike Douglas1

This is a list of the factors related to recording and encoding files I think may make a difference in getting iTunes Match to, well, match recordings made from analog source material, specifically vinyl, though some people have thrown cassette recordings at the matching process and had some success. It's hardly comprehensive and certainly not all my own. Roebeet in particular has provided quite a bit of detail on his process and success in getting things to match. I just wanted to summarize my thinking.


First off, nothing I write here is meant to criticise anyone's way of doing things and it's certainly subject to change. My success is far from 100%, though it's improving. My analog equipment isn't anything to write home about either, though as I can, I improve it too.


Comments and observations from Roebeet have certainly expanded my mind on the subject in the last few days, and the changes I've made in my process thanks to his input does seem to have increased my matches. It's also sped up the process of getting vinyl into iTunes, match or no, and I'm thankful for that.


As has been said by many, changes Apple may make in the future might result in our getting better matches. However, it is also possible that when it comes to files from analog source material that changes on Apple's end might result in fewer matches. I can't do much about what Apple does (those who regularly talk to people above L1, thanks though), so I choose to work on my process to see if I can improve my success rate. I do it in part because, hey, it's kind of a fun challenge for me.


First, try to put aside any successes you've had getting other matching services to match your songs. Apple's matching to what is in iTunes, which means at best it is using a subset of the larger Gracenote database other matching services use. Further, when it comes to matching vinyl, what appears to be the "same song" for sale on iTunes, in reality is at best similar (more on that later). Finally, we don't know what Apple's agreement with the RIAA is, but chances are the deal that lets us download better copies of thousands of songs for chump change forced them to set the bar pretty high. I'm of the mind that they were right to set the bar high, then work to improve matching, as to do it the other way would likely set off a firestorm.


OK so here goes . . .


• Be certain your turntable is operating at the right speed and that wow and flutter aren't coming into play in a major way. You may assume that your TT is fine, but if you have never put a strobe disk on it, just taking it for granted because of a speed lock light or something is a little presumptuous I think. You can download a strobe from VinylEngine among other places. The thinking here is that deviations in speed that you may not hear can compress or expand the waveform enough to preclude a match. I now check before each recording session and the slight drift I need to correct for (I'm using a Dual 1219, which is an idler wheel with a speed control knob) is slight, but it is there.


• Work in lossless formats throughout. Using a lossy format for the final output file, the one you put into your library and submit to iTunes Match is fine and may for you be preferable. I use lossy at the end because I don't want to choke up my library (in particular those uploaded to the cloud and back down to iPhone). The thinking here is that you lose some data any time you convert/export using a lossy format. Some people move in and out of programs in order to do noise removal, so if done in lossy, each import/export could result in additional data loss. You may not hear it, but iTunes Match may need that extra data to do its thing.


However, when it comes to your final output, beware that not all AAC files are the same. My own experience is that some AAC files created with encoders outside of iTunes will get through Apple's initial screening process, may even result in matches, but if they are uploaded, they will not play. The encoders I've had trouble with have been tied to Audacity. I now use 16-bit WAV until the end which has the added benefit of speeding up my work. The number crunching done to create an AAC is a real time waster. You may have a lot more horsepower than I, but individual tracks exported from Audacity in 16-bit WAV get done in seconds, where AAC files take me 2-4 minutes. It's one place where speeding things up actually produces better results.


• Beware of the potential for clipping to be introduced at points where you may never see it. As Roebeet has pointed out, people using programs like Audacity have learned to keep initial recording levels low (-6 db is often mentioned), then they use the Amplify function to take things up to 0 db. Problem with this is that you've left yourself no headroom. The file may be clipped when converted during an export. Robeet's looked at a lot of maxed out files in Audacity and has seen plenty of evidence that this happens. His solution is to set Amplify at a -0.5 db, something I've already added to my process.


• Set your label tags as close to the beginning of each track as you can. I used to be a bit sloppy, just made sure I didn't clip the track. I don't know if there's an industry standard for this, nor whether such a standard is applied to everything in the iTunes store, but it stands to reason if the matching process involves locating the true beginning of the song and from there matching it to Apple's baseline copy, best not to give it anything but true music to look at. While Audacity has a "find silence" feature that can put blank tags before a lot of tracks, it's caused me enough grief that I set all my tags manually. I can do it faster anyway.


• Give some thought to how you're doing your analog to digital conversion. If you have a high-end sound card or breakout box, you may be fine. If you feed a preamp out directly into a Macbook and use the laptop's sound card, you may have a problem (that's me, by the way).


The biggest issue I'm aware of is a DC bias offset introduced by the sound card. Audacity has a filter to correct this. Before running it, areas of silence that are positive on one track are negative on the other. After running it, the areas of silence look a lot more like silence. It affects the waveform significantly. I should say I've never put anything to the match process without running DC Offset so I don't really have any evidence to support that it matters.


• Some cleanup is going to help, some is going to hurt. Of course, proper cleanup that actually involves cleaning the record before playing it is always a good idea! If you've bee working with vinyl for some time, this is a no-brainer. If you are new however, do yourself a favor and read up on proper cleaning techniques, as some not so proper methods may damage the record or leave a residue you don't need the hearing of a hunting dog to pick up on.


When it comes to digital cleanup, err on the side of caution, but know if done right, it may get you a match. It seems most people who start out in Audacity use its Click Removal filter, but after awhile their ears tell them a lot more than just clicks and pops are being removed and move on to some other program. I use ClickRepair and run it in a semi-auto mode that does a good job of helping me keep from removing transients. I'd put removing transients into the same category as clipping the signal - you're making significant deviations from the original that may easily kill a match.


I have some experience that suggest noise can kill a match, particularly on songs with quiet passages. For example,Track 1 on Zeppelin's In Through The Out Door, which starts with a long, long, long fade up, did not match for me initially. Listening to it, I was surprised at how much noisy my copy was. Still,it did match after I went back and reprocessed using ClickRepair.


• Resist the temptation to replace the silence between tracks with true silence. Mess with the dead air and you risk altering the beginning and end of the music. Some of my own experiences suggest fadeouts may hinder matching. For instance, I've got two albums by the same artist, recorded the same day using the same workflow. Every song on both albums, save one, matched. The last song on the B side, which is the only one I normally use a fade out on. If you just can't stand all the noise between your tracks, consider that a sign that the tracks are probably full of enough noise to preclude a match anyway and take steps to correct the problem.


• Do all you can to assure your metadata is as complete and correct as you possibly can make it. While it's clear that the matching process does not preclude even unnamed tracks from getting matched (I'm one of many who have had several unnamed tracks make it through), the first step in the matching process involves gathering information from your library. While I've seen nothing that confirms what Apple is doing with the information it gathers, my assumption is that at a minimum, an attempt is made to first identify possible matches based on song/artist/album title, then to actually compare the songs to see if they match. If this is true, then at the very least, the more accurate information Apple's got to work from, the faster the process will be.


If you haven't run a program like TuneUp, you might want to do so. I haven't been nearly as diligent as many are about keeping my tags clean, so the process of getting things through iTunes Match has been going on at the same time I've been cleaning up my library - not good.


• Be prepared for iTunes to throw you a lot of crazy matches. Some curve balls have been well documented: Explicit versions being matched with clean ones, album-length songs being matched with top 40 shorty versions, monos matched with stereos, etc. This is happening regardless of the media the source material came from. I think we can all agree this is a pretty big negative that Apple needs to correct.


On the plus side though, if you want access to a better copy of a song than what you have, if Apple has that song on a compliation, or anywhere else for that matter, it may match it. In doing so, it may show up as being on an album other than the one you've recorded though. A prime example for me is a recording I made from a Verve compliation of Count Basie songs from 1955-56. iTunes doesn't have it. In fact, Tuneup didn't see it either, but it found a number of the tracks on another Basie compliation (Though some might be renditions done on a different date - I haven't checked yet). I decided to go with Tuneup's tags. All of those tracks ended up being matched.


• Finally, don't expect miracles.


If you are working from vinyl, nothing that Apple has on its servers is the same as what you recorded. The music industry didn't make all those Beatle's digital files by dropping a needle on a record and even if it had, the chances are the equipment they used would be light years ahead of what most of us are using (though for some recordings, a good argument can be made that they still didn't do a very good job).


Be thankful that Apple's matching system needs to be loose enough to match files that aren't identical to the baseline file. After all, while vinyl is unique, the same can be said for all those low bitrate songs people are looking to upgrade, it's the need to accommodate sub-par all-digital rips that's allowing any vinyl to get through at all. I've certainly not seen any language from Apple suggesting the service is supposed to let you get high birate copies of songs you recorded from vinyl, cassette, 8-track . . .


Personally, while I do want more matches, I'm pretty happy with my results so far. That I can access my entire music library on any of my devices is a big deal for me. Best of all, I no longer have to hit myself in the head when my music suddenly stops because I forgot and closed the laptop!

Dec 18, 2011 8:20 AM in response to JiminMissouri

Great post!


If I have time today, I'll take one of my recent needledrops where I have the CD version as well, and see if I can tweak the rip to make the song match. Or, if it matches, what I can do to make it unmatch - i.e. chop off the silence, alter the pitch a little, or make the waveform clip. This will give me a better idea on what Apple is doing.


I have a lot of CD / vinyl dups as I've actually been slowly replacing my CD's with vinyl - I know, some may think this is foolish but I do prefer my vinyl a lot of the time. But it also means that I can do a match with both the vinyl and CD version of the same song.

Dec 18, 2011 9:08 AM in response to Community User

Thanks. I do get a little wordy at times though. You'll be doing us all a service by running the experiments you propose. You might well uncover some things that are common to the "won't match" subject, regardless of source material. Good luck with it. I look forward to hearing what you discover - Jim


P.S. Not surprised you'd prefer your vinyl. While every medium has its pluses, certainly there are issues with a lot of my CDs that make me prefer the vinyl copy.


Message was edited by: JiminMissouri

Dec 18, 2011 9:32 AM in response to Community User

Here you go -- one full test. Song is Glen Campbell's "Sing", taken off "Meet Glen Campbell" from 2008. I have the CD and the vinyl for this album, and since it's only three years old the masters are very similar (at least to my ear). The vinyl's dynamic range is just a tad better than the CD.


My vinyl rip is close to the same the same length as the CD, and the pitch is spot-on correct when comparing them together. The vinyl has a little more silence (a half second, perhaps) at the end, but the CD rip has a little extra silence at the beginning.


First off, I tried matching both songs as is (using a 16-bit AIFF master), and they both Matched. Again, I'm thinking the mastering itself is a large part of the process, here. So then I starting messing around with the vinyl song. Each test was on a pristine master file, btw:


1. Chopped off the first second of the song (which is a fade in). This turned it into an upload.

2. Chopped off the last second of the song (which has a fade out). It still matched.

3. Chopped off another second at the end of the song. It still matched.

4. Chopped off two more seconds at the end of the song. Still matched (still a little fade in left).

5. Chopped off another two seconds at the end of the song. It finally changed to an upload.


These tests are of interest. The beginning of the song seems to have more weight than the end of the song, at least in this case.


6. Added light and moderate clipping. Neither affected the matching process, interestingly enough.

7. Added heavy clipping (+10db), enough to alter the sound audibly. STILL matched, which was a big surprise to me. So I'm thinking clipping may not be a heavy factor here. I had to literally go to +75db before it stopped matching!

8. Pitch change, one note up (5%). It became an upload, so this is one I'd definitely watch out for. (I also tried 5% down with the same results) If your turntable is fairly old and the belt is worn, your pitch could be off - easy suggestion is to listen to your needledrop, and then the tune on Spotify (if you have it) to see if you can hear a pitch difference. My AT-LP120-USB has a quartz lock feature which is supposed to keep the pitch correct, tmk.

Dec 18, 2011 11:09 AM in response to Community User

I'm thinking the mastering itself is a large part of the process, here.

I imagine so. Your tests using a CD that seems to be the same as the vinyl one would think off the bat would have a much greater chance of their both matching and apparently in this case they did. In that context, getting songs originall recorded in 1956, re-issued by Verve probably sometime in the 70's to match iTunes copies is pretty amazing, but since I've done it, we know it's possible.


These tests are of interest. The beginning of the song seems to have more weight than the end of the song, at least in this case.

That's along the lines of what I expected. My logic's probably twisted, but I'm thinking the process starts by identifying what may be a match, then checking the first 10 seconds or so. But if it's not easy to find those first second, forget it. Actually may be a lot less than a second would kill it. You killed part of the track, but did you try one where the open was sloppy? I'm still left wondering how important getting the tag close to the beginning of the track is.


On the other hand, for those of us in vinyl, when have situations like I've had, where see the last track on a side doesn't make it, well think about the difference. Longer fade outs were customarily put there. Why? Because it was enough of a difference to say "the side is ending, you need to get off the couch and change the record." My guess is that long fadeout isn't there on a lot of CDs. If that's true on the Glen Campbell vinyl, there's something to check out.


Added heavy clipping (+10db), enough to alter the sound audibly. STILL matched, which was a big surprise to me.


It surprises me a bit too, but think about it. just how awful does an MP3 have to be before Apple deems it ineligible? In my opinion, pretty darned awful. This may also explain though, why some things I've gotten to match really weren't in that great of shape. Other things that were "right" (pitch, song start point) might have been enough to get it through.


Pitch change, one note up (5%). It became an upload, so this is one I'd definitely watch out for.

5% is a huge difference though. I wonder if it wouldn't be unusual for a poorly performing TT to be off that much. Up a full note? I'm thinking of how management at the station would have the engineers bump up the speed. It was done for two reasons (1) to help support the "more music" pitch (2) well our stuff just sounded more upbeat (which it was). Along the lines with your varying the length cut off either end, I wonder what a 1% bump would do?


Final thought: All of this is very, very interesting and you may have figured out some important aspects to matching that will help. However, if you kept a copy of all the files that you used for the test, wouldn't it make sense to verify your results in a few days, just put them all to the match process again? I know easy for me to say, since I'm not the one putting all the time into it! I'd love to get into it, but we got lucky today with weather warm enough to do a little trim painting outside. This place is a work in progress and some things need to be done when they can be done. Or it's wait until Spring.


Thanks for all you're doing. I'm enjoying this little journey. Hope you are too.


Message was edited by: JiminMissouri

Dec 18, 2011 11:45 AM in response to JiminMissouri

5% was pretty high for the pitch, but my old Philips turntable is actually that bad if you don't tweak it. And I used to have an old Onkyo belt TT that was also significantly off. But you don't really hear it unless you have another copy to compare it to.


You also brought up a good point that timing between attempts could be a factor - perhaps some of my matches are just "cached" because I'm trying them too fast, I don't know. But I might try an older LP next that doesn't match, and see if I can tweak the sound to make it match - ultimately that's the end goal so I'm thinking pitch and beginning of the track as important factors.


EDIT: Re-tried my True Blue tracks 3 and 7, trying to match up the beginning audio closer to my CD version - track 7 now matches, but track 3 still doesn't. But again it defintiely tells me that the beginning of the song needs to match up closely to what's in their database - add one or two seconds of extra silence, for example, and it won't match.

Dec 18, 2011 11:59 AM in response to Community User

OK, if we accept that a 5% change in pitch is something not everyone would hear, then I can see that it could result in some people not getting matches, scratching their heads, wondering why. If they were thinking that because it sounded "clean" it should match, when based on your results, "clean" is less of a factor than pitch. It reinforces the importance of being sure you're at speed before you record.


So your Madonna results are adding credence to the idea that sloppy tags that put too much dead air before the track could well be a factor.


While I suspect in most cases, pitch problems are a bigger deal than noise (or distortion) I do think overall S/N ratio is looking to be a big factor, particularly at the beginning of a track. Between my experiences with Joplin's Pearl, the Zepplin track and others, noise may be less of an issue if the beginning of the track is, hmm, call it a "wall of sound," but if you've got something that's more simple, say voice and one guitar, nothing else, or if you have a very slow fade up, the S/N ratio may be bad enough to kill it. Do a good job in ClickRepair and that might do the trick.

Dec 18, 2011 12:58 PM in response to JiminMissouri

Just did another test - this time with an old LP, Nat King Cole's "Sings for Two in Love". I picked this one because I think it's the oldest LP I've needledropped - mono pressing with the Capitol rainbow label, probably an early 1960's pressing if not earlier.


I really expected it to fail to match at all. but I actually got 11 out of 12 matched! Only Track 7 (first track on Side 2) was uploaded. This was a 24/48 needledrop, sent through ClickRepair at 30 for declick, saved as 24/48 FLAC "masters" and then transcoded to 192 MP3 for the iTunes import. I wish I knew why that one track doesn't match, but this is a situation where I don't have a CD version to directly compare. Also wish I knew why the match success on this one was so high. 🙂

Matching digitized vinyl iTunes imports

Welcome to Apple Support Community
A forum where Apple customers help each other with their products. Get started with your Apple Account.