Looks like no one’s replied in a while. To start the conversation again, simply ask a new question.

Matching digitized vinyl iTunes imports

Really bummed that iTunes match won't match the vinyl albums I digitized and imported into iTunes. All of these albums are currently available through the iTunes music store but just won't match up so I can take advantage of the higher bitrate. This was one of the key selling points for me for the match service.


Anybody have any tips or tricks to make this work? Is it the hiss and pops on the record or speed of the turntable that is affecting the waveform matching?

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 2:32 PM

Reply
63 replies

Feb 1, 2012 2:25 PM in response to JiminMissouri

Audacity has a bug in Windows where it will not record in 24-bit, even if you set it that way. It's allgedely due to DirectSound, but I believe there are workarounds. Linux/MacOS should not have this problem. Also, if your line-in doesn't support 24/96, you might think you're getting 96khz but in reality it's just dead space.


Here's a spectrogram of what I see with my GT40 recording (which does do 24/96 in):


User uploaded file


-96db is the 16-bit limit. Notice the slow drop down, which I believe is the expected behavior. When I was doing with a line-in which did not support true 24/96, I would get spikes over 22khz, but it wasn't a slow drop like this. I believe those spikes were just noise and not actual musical data.


I also use the free and cross-platform tool called "Spek" to get a better picture of this. It will show the spikes better than you'd see in the Audacity spectrogram tool.

Apr 3, 2012 6:29 PM in response to Mike Douglas1

Wanted to post a small update to my vinyl matching - had a small breakthrough that some may find of interest.


I recently upgraded my stylus to a Nagaoka MP-110. I usually attempt a iTunes Match with every needle-drop I do, and I actually re-dropped an old probematic LP where I got a 4/9 Match, back in January. Interestingly, I just tried to re-Match with this new drop and I got a 6/9 this time. This new cart of mine has two specific differences from what I've used before -- first, it's generally quieter (less surface noise) and secondly it's a more "neutral" sound. In other words, it may sound more like what's in iTunes.


Just something to think about with your own needle-drops -- the closer you an get to the sound of the iTunes files, the more likely you'll get a Match, imho.

Apr 24, 2012 6:34 AM in response to jonathanfrommankato

In iTunes, select "View Options"

From the "View" menu, and check "iCloud Status". You'll find each item in your library listed as Waiting, Uploaded, Matched, or Ineligible.


Uploaded items are songs that weren't Matched, but are

Uploaded to "iTunes in the Cloud" and are available to

Download on any device connected to that iCloud account.


Ineligible items are iTunes Extras, Voice memos, etc.


Hope this helps. More info is available in Apple support article TS4124


http://www.apple.com/kb/TS4124


Posted from my iPhone 4S

Jun 7, 2012 11:04 AM in response to Community User

Just wanted to jump in here and say thank you to you guys for a very informative discussion. I recently started playing with iTunes match in the hope I could short circuit some of the time-consuming activities in Audacity when it comes to digitizing my vinyl.


So far I have digitized 16 albums and only 6 tracks matched (sorry didn't count the total tracks). I was hoping to be able to match because the sound quality of my rips (using a cheap USB turntable) are awful. The frequecy response is way off and the wow and flutter is very evident. So, picked up ots of toips from you guys there.


I now have my B&O turntable repaired so I'm hoping for betting quality rips, and matches, going forward. Interesting comments on the space at the beginning of the track, but if I have nothing to compare it to how do I know the optimum value? (i.e. in the space between tracks when does one track end and the next begin?).


Very interesting comments on the Audacity click filter, looks like I need to be trying ClickRepair - and TuneUp as well.


Thanks again!

Jun 7, 2012 12:15 PM in response to amigasteve

I was using Rhapsody (which I subscribe to) for the silence / pitch matching, but you could probably try Spotify for a "free" solution.


Silence before/after is definitely pretty key, from my experience -- I've definitely tweaked that not only for vinyl rips but also CD rips where I might get a match after I tweak it. I also use the iTunes track times as a guide - you want your vinyl track to get as close to that as possible.

Jan 22, 2013 2:19 PM in response to Mike Douglas1

Hey folks, I realize that this thread is kind of old, but I just encountered something I hoped y'all could help me with. The White Stripes's album Icky Thump is on the iTunes Store, and I have it, but Jack White's record label has a record club where you get limited vinyl every quarter, and their first issue included a MONO mix of the album Icky Thump. It only exists on vinyl and is fairly rare, so I was hoping to digitize it and have it upload to iTunes Match. The first two tracks matched, and the rest uploaded. I was hoping it would upload it all, because the things it matched to are the STEREO tracks from the iTunes Store, which i already have in my iTunes library.


How do I force iTunes Match to recognize these as tracks that are new, rather than tracks that the store already has?

Jan 22, 2013 2:51 PM in response to aaronmchidester

Pretty much the reverse of what I suggested earlier in the thread - possibly add a few seconds of silence at the start of each track, for example. Or, tweak the pitch levels a bit. There's a good chance that one or the other will allow for an upload vs a Match.

Feb 25, 2013 1:56 PM in response to Community User

Roebeet, been a long time since I checked the forums. A quick scan didn't bring up much new on the subject, so below is my latest. Forgive me if it's old news to some.


To date, I have submitted to iTunes Match approximately 325 albums recorded digitally from vinyl, all recorded with iTunes Match in mind. That's about 2,900 tracks, 1,442 of which matched.


At first glance, that doesn't sound all that great, but a few factors have contributed to my overall track record being significantly lower than what I've achieved of late, most of which we've covered before: (1) songs, entire albums just not in the store, (2) experiments that simply made things worse for a time, etc.


The short story is I believe the better matches I'm getting now (95%-100%) come down my shifting focus to removing noise from the tail of the track, including the silence left on it, although other factors we all covered some time back certainly matter.


I believe the matching process needs to be able to sync to the track tail and anything that prevents that from happening, prevents a match. Further, the actual sample matched seems likely to be in or near the tail, as since I've shifted focus to the tail, I've been able to get matches for some tracks that had a fair amount of unrepaired damage early on (which I either repaired later or decided it best to trash my file once I had a good match).


To accomplish this I am still using ClickRepair, but applying break points to allow me to adjust settings differently for the main part of the track, for the tail, and finally for the silence.


After having reviewed "damage" flagged by ClickRepair down to an auto setting of 6, I've concluded that for far too many well recorded albums in good condition (true vintage albums with poor dynamic range & more narrow frequency response are a different matter), more music is being lost than damage repaired. In some cases, having the repair setting at 1 and still watching any proposed change over 6, I still see far too much music being removed.


Therefore, I often turn off processing for the body of the track, run in manual for the remainder, until it's clear noise amplitude is well above the music and ClickRepair is making good decisions on its own. Once I'm there I, put ClickRepair to 100 and full Auto. It then does its thing quickly and stops at the beginning of of the next track


With respect to the concept of iTunes Match needing a clean tail in order to sync, consider what happens in Audacity if you try to use the "Silence Finder" as a means of placing label markers at the beginning of each track. It works - so long as there isn't something in the silence that rises above the threshold amplitude level. One little nit above that threshold and the label is either mis-placed or an additional label is put right before the nit. As for why the tail and not the head, the fact that the tail of a track is usually only available to someone who has the full track (previews I'm aware of don't include the tail), plus the need to obtain and verify track length through means other than metadata are relevant.


Putting your own fade out over the original, followed by inserting true silence is a mixed bag. Putting aside the fact it ruins the continuity, the feel of the vinyl recording, you run the risk of altering the tail enough to cause matching problems. It can help if one wants to go that route, particularly on tracks that are so noisy ClickRepair just can't quiet things down below whatever threshold iTunes Match requires. In my experience it will improve your matching percentage, but I didn't find it to be as effective as what I'm doing now, and as I said, it's not something most of us want to do anyway.


With respect to the other side of the discussion, working to force uploads, all you've said still seems on target. My guess is if someone really wanted to force an upload, based on my current understanding, placing a simple, soft click or any more subtle, pleasant noise shortly after the tail ought to do it. My guess is if it's loud enough to trip up Audacity's silence finder, it will trip up iTunes Match. Not optimal, but then short of the magical force upload button suddenly appearing, nothing really is.


There's a lot more to my current process, which I'll be glad to explain if anyone is still interested in the subject.

Feb 25, 2013 7:32 PM in response to JiminMissouri

Nice post! I personally haven't delved into it too much since early 2012, although I did renew iTM as I had a gift card to burn and I figured a few $5 Amazon purchases would basically "pay for itself" for the year.


I actually need to try a recent vinyl rip of mine, in that I tried the MP3 download (Joy Formidable's "Wolf's Law") and got only one match. I think it's related to "Mastered for iTunes" and matching, but that's a different discussion. I've also since moved onto another turntable with less rumble so that might actually help with matching as well.

Feb 25, 2013 8:44 PM in response to Community User

Hi Robeet,


I agree that a reduction in rumble or anything else that just wouldn't be in the iTunes version could improve matching. To that end for a time I was using the Apple Low Shelf filter in addition to the rumble filter on my preamp to knock down everything in the 10-20hz range. I was never able to verify that it mattered for matching (tried some problem tracks both ways and nothing changed), but felt it was the right thing to do for my rips anyway. However I also believe that it's one thing to keep low frequency from ever hitting the sylus, quite another to remove it after the fact. I suspect once its hit the stylus, the low frequencies alter the music in a way that filters simply can't counter. Wouldn't surprise me if this was heavily documented by audio engineers in the middle of the last century.


While I've not moved from my Dual 1219, I have made some simple changes that have knocked down rumble to the point where using the Low Shelf Filter is no longer necessary. One day perhaps the rumble filter can be removed from the equation as well. In any event, placing some damping material inside the plinth helped quite a bit, as has using a center weight. It's certainly possible that if I had not made those changes, I never would have discovered that processing tails and silence could make or break a match.


I recall there was some discussion regarding whether it was possible to match vinyl to albums only available as remasters in iTunes, though the discussion focused on Beatles tracks.I can confirm that in some cases vinyl will match with remasters (other than Beatles). I got a 100% match last week to Johnny Hammond's Wild Horses Rock Steady which is onlly available as an anniversary issued remaster. Apparently the original KUDU holds up pretty well after all these years.

Feb 25, 2013 11:59 PM in response to JiminMissouri

Hi,

Like you I have had good success matching vinyl rips.


I use project turntable with built in analog to digital converter and connect by USB to my mac. Audio hijack pro is used to capture record as 24 bit AIFF files.


I use Denoise LF at default settings, then Click repair to decracle, then again to de click. I then use Denoise at default levels.


I then edit track in Audacity to get track to be the same length as store version and use normalise function. Sometimes use click removal or repair to fix tracks that Click repair missed.


File is exported as Aiff and added to iTunes. This format along with lossless appear to be causing problems in latest version of iTunes but that is another story.


Do you have any suggestions to help me improve match process, specifically the settings on Denoise and Click Repair.


Jim

Feb 26, 2013 7:04 AM in response to JiminMissouri

Jim, I'm 3 hours north of you, in Des Moines, IA. I haven't done much more matching since last Spring, but that stack of unripped vinyl has been calling to me, of late. Although I've had reasonable Match success, I know that it could be much better. I'm not an audio guy. And, while I get a lot of what's being talked about, there's more that I don't understand, and there are methods being talked about that I don't understand, and software that I don't have/have never used. Is it possible (and would you be interested in) to take a discussion offline to real time? Like hauling my setup down and doing a rip session together? B lehn ertz at me

Feb 26, 2013 8:39 AM in response to Jimzgoldfinch

Jimzgoldfinch - My overall opinion of your process is that for any record in good condition, you're doing far too much alteration of the master music file, regardless of whether your primary objective is to get more matches or to retain as much of the quality of the source material (vinyl) as possible. Offering specific settings recommendations is something I generally don't do.


Everyone has their own set of ears, their own objectives, not to mention differences in equipment. While I have little desire to remove every nit from a recording made from vinyl, someone who didn't (as I did) grow up listening to the medium, someone who listens primarily to digital source material via earbuds may well consider any noise during quiet passages and between tracks unacceptable and do everything possible to wipe it out. For me, the only reason to remove as much noise as possible between tracks is because I believe it's an impediment to the matching process. A nit here or there within the body of a track just reminds me of its origin and I derive some pleasure from that.


Because of that, instead of a "try these settings" approach, I try to show people how they can better educate themselves, so they can have the measure of control over their process necessary to tailor it to their own needs. Apologies if what follows is long-winded. Shorter responses normally come after the first one, I promise. ;-). Just keep in mind as long as it may take to read what I write, I assure you it took me much longer to write it!


That said, less is more when it comes to capturing vinyl. There are many apps intended to "clean up" vinyl in one way or another, but I'm not aware of any that don't in the fine print make it clear that the music is, to some extent, affected by the process. Steps that involve import/export, downsampling/upsampling, etc. should also be kept to a minimum, the theory being that each unnecessary step brings with it the risk of changing the music in some way, however imperceptible.


Besides, every step takes more time - time better spent listening to music.


So if a "cleanup" process isn't absolutely necessary, I say don't use it. If you can't hear it (or if you can it doesn't really bother you), then if it can't damage your equipment, or doesn't adversely affect the matching process, forget it. If it is something that needs to be addressed, use the lowest settings possible. Default to me is a dirty word. There is no "default" when it comes to processing vinyl. Every disk is different and much is lost by allowing any process that alters the file to do so unattended. Thus, I'm not a fan of "auto" anything either.


The human ear, coupled with the human eye can do amazing things. Train them. Use them.


With that, I'll try to address each step in your process in the order you presented it.


Denoise LF -

I tried a demo copy of Denoise LF, but wasn't happy with the results. It reminded me of the results I got by using Audacity's Denoise filter, which I quickly abandoned. I understand the concept though and as I said earlier, the idea of de-emphasizing LF does make sense if it is significant enough to cause speaker damage. I believe a better way to go is to either remove the source of the LF entirely, or to prevent it from getting to the stylus. A good turntable mat, coupled with a center weight/clamp can do wonders in that regard.


Persons who have studied the waveform of a purely digital source are used to seeing true silence, a waveform devoid of all signs of the tell-tale "snake" of LF that runs throughout the music, a signature one can really obsess on if you work in Audacity a lot and work in ways that exaggerate amplitude to the max. I suspect they are more likely than I am to consider the goal making the waveform perfectly flat. I think that's where many people get into trouble when working with files sourced from vinyl.


But if you are intent on using Denoise LF, I would strongly suggest using Audacity to examine what it's actually doing by examining "before and after" spectrograms. I normally look at the first minute, a 60-second sample three minutes in, and a third one around 15 minutes in. There are reasons why I sample different sections of the record. LF noise is generally worst at the edge, but unless it's horrible (an edge warp), since it's not a representative sample, I don't use as a guide to my settings. But understanding the overall signature in the 10hz-20 Hz range is critical in those few instances where I opt to apply the Apple Low Shelf Filter (an alternative to Denoise LF).


To do this, take a good look at the plateau or hump in the spectrogram in the 10-20 Hz range. If it is well below the peak amplitude, in the -50 Db range or lower, then I wouldn't do anything to that particular album. For me, well done recordings, like those on KUDU, CTI, Sire and many others, there's simply no need to do anything other than apply the rumble filter on my preamp. If I weren't using an idler wheel drive TT, I doubt I'd need even that, as it's the drive of my TT that is the limiting factor.


Decrackle -

With respect to "Decrackle" in ClickRepair, it's intended to be used only on 78's, which have a different noise profile than Lps. Use of it on an LP may result in some noise removal, sure, but if the LP is in good condition, there's nothing it should be removing that the "DeClick" process won't. Personally, unless you are processing 78's I would leave this step out. Not only is it unnecessary, it is likely destructive when applied to Lps.


Declick -

The "Declick" in ClickRepair does not simply remove clicks and pops. The name is really quite misleading, because what the app is doing is trying to identify anything and everything that is not music and "fix" it. That means even little, soft nits that may be present throughout the recording, but are audible only in quiet passages, will often get picked up by ClickRepair.


As I said in an earlier post, if you listen to the record, or to the unprocessed sound file and only hear a few clicks, you are better off using Audacity's repair tool to manually remove them. ClickRepair will remove them too, but it removes a lot more, some of which unfortunately will be music if you're not doing a lot of work manually.


As for specific settings, there are plenty of recommendations out there and early on I tried many of them. I've read accounts that suggest that as people learn more about ClickRepair, the refinements they make to their settings generally follow the same path. They learn that ClickRepair actually has several default settings, some intended to work better on music with brass instruments, others with lots of percussion. From there they normally end up reducing the "Declick" setting further, but often don't make a similar adjustment to the "Auto" setting.


If one doesn't drop the Auto setting down significantly, they're still letting the app work largely on its own. It's easy to conclude a reduction in the Declick setting is all that's necessary, because you'll see the file process more quickly and will see fewer spots highlighted as having been "fixed" in the zoomed out waveform at the top of the window.


If you set Auto at 50 as many people do and reduce the sensitivity a little at a time, you'll certainly be rewarded by seeing the app running faster, stopping less often. For many people, that may be all they need to do, all they've got patience for. Honestly though, good as ClickRepair can be, its author is the first one to tell you it's not as good at making decisions as you are. I believe the strongest feature of the app is its ability to cue up spots that may be noise or damage and let you make your own decisions. Even in cases where you are certain a repair is warranted, you will occasionally decide you can do a better job manually than what ClickRepair proposes to do.


Reducing ClickRepair's Auto setting, so you can review practically all proposed changes is highly educational, albeit a tad frightening once you see what you've been letting the app do to your music in default mode. Try using an auto setting of six and DeClick at 50 on the silence between passages and you'll learn a lot about what true noise and damage looks like, as well as how large some of the damaged segments can be.


But do the same experiment on the very beginning of a song where the first note is solid and strong and chances are you won't like what you see. Do the same thing on a passage by your favorite sax player using the default "brass" settings, but again set Auto to 6. Check out what it's still trying to do to your favorite sax player.


You'll learn even more if you first open an unprocessed sound file of an entire album in Audacity and study the peaks, then run it through ClickRepair and study it again. If while studying the unprocessed sound file, you identified music peaks that were significantly higher than the rest (one or two hard struck individual keys on a piano, or those few times the drummer really came down hard), you may discover that during processing, ClickRepair grabbed those notes and dropped their amplitude, removed what made them stand out above all else in the music.


Once you've learned what ClickRepair, if left unattended can do to your music, obviously the next step is to figure out how best to keep it from making as many unwarranted changes as possible. To this end, I recommend using the app's "Abort" feature.


If you use breakpoints as I do, you can safely process the fraction of a second of silence before the first track in with Declick at 100 and full Auto mode. If you then drop Auto to six and click through a dozen or so proposed changes, you will see fairly quickly whether the app is going to alter more of the music than is acceptable to you. If that happens, simply hit abort, choosing the option that lets you simply start over, make adjustments to your settings and try again. Eventually you will either hit on settings you are comfortable with, or you will, as I often do, opt not to let Clickrepair process the body of the track.


A caution though. You're still only sampling the first track. While this should get you in the ballpark, every track is different and since Abort makes you start the entire process over, it's best to start every track with DeClick set very low, auto set low as well. If as you start processing you think it's safe, slowly increase your settings.


I also recommend using another feature of ClickRepair to help verify your decisions. On the upper graph, at the far right, there is a little marker that corresponds to the point ClickRepair has stopped at. Drag across that marker, then hit play and you are hearing the area in question. Assuming you're using a good set of headphones, if the proposed fix is actually noise (noise that matters) you should hear it. If you're not certain, hit the "fix" button while the segment is playing. You can toggle between "fix" and "undo" while it plays. As much as I've worked with ClickRepair, I'm still often tricked into thinking music is damage, so listening to proposed changes remains quite important.


Audacity's "Click Removal" vs. "repair" -

I don't use "click removal" ever. I tried it, but after examining the file more closely, decided the time necessary to use the "repair" function to manually make corrections was time well spent.


Audacity's "Normalize" function -

I don't use it, but I know many people have no other means of correcting channel imbalance. Instead I audition enough of each album prior to recording to know if there is an imbalance worth correcting. if it's quite obvious that uneven groove wear has caused a problem, I make adjustments using my preamp's balance control. If there isn't a readily apparent imbalance, I leave well enough alone.


I hope this helps.

Matching digitized vinyl iTunes imports

Welcome to Apple Support Community
A forum where Apple customers help each other with their products. Get started with your Apple ID.