logic pro 10

I use Logic or writing, messing aroung with my own stuff, but use Cubase as my main DAW for commercial work also fir writing and to keep compatibility with the University (PBS) here which uses Nuendo on both PC and Mac, cross platform compatibility is a must. I don't know if you've ever used Nuendo or Cubase (ver 5 or 6) but Audio work is far beyond Logic. Just the simple fact that you can apply any plugin to any piece of selected audio without having to resort to automation. I know what I want edited, I want the changes fast and permanent. That and the Cubase audio editor is very close to Soundforge in features, complete with key commands for every function. Yes, you can do most things in Logic but it is like working in a slow, outmoded interface.

I love Logic.. in fact, It's not Logic that I distrust, it's Apple.

In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of problems with recent OS and Logic performance and I don't think it's Logic's fault. This is not professional... The PBS outlet here gets far better service and communication with Yamaha/Steinberg, calls are returned, features and needs are discussed. Important, extremely important.

Pancenter wrote:

the simple fact that you can apply any plugin to any piece of selected audio without having to resort to automation.

That's what Bounce Regions in Place is for...

"... complete with key commands for every function. Yes, you can do most things in Logic but it is like working in a slow, outmoded interface."

How is Logic slower? Which key commands are you missing? IMHO, the main thing to address now in terms of waiting for Logic 10 is that theres still a large number of users who have never looked at the manual and know only a small fraction of the available key commands Logic has.

"Audio work is far beyond Logic." What about a Top 10 list? :-)

"Most Logic users" don't need Logic 10 - they just ned to learn Logic 9! :-)

Hey I'm glad you're happy, I like Logic too, just not a fanboy.

I've used both for years, since Logic 2.5 a MIDI only version. Bounce in place is exactly the outmoded behavior I'm talking about, it's a workaround. Each person has different needs, if logic is perfect for you, so be it, it's not perfect for me.

The bigger question than you or I is why are professional studios and other operations (University audio/arts education) moving away from Logic. Right now the only studio in town (out of 18-20) that uses Logic is a startup.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Logic, a lot, it's just that I've become distrustful of Apple's handling and the lack of communication, which incidentally is why Logic is being abandoned in some circles.

Pancenter wrote:

Bounce in place is exactly the outmoded behavior I'm talking about, it's a workaround.

What I'm saying is that it lets you apply any plugin to a (MArquee) selected piece of audio *without' having to resort to automation. If I want to bounce a certain section 'in place', with effects, Bounce Regions In Place does exactly that - I just select the area I wanty to edit, and press Control B.

The University I have been teaching at this year is not at all moving away from Logic, they expand their Logic activities. But people who know less about Logic than eg you and me *may* move way from Logic if they read that another DAW is 'far beyond' Logic, so why not at least make a Top 5 list? :-) Many pros I know (as in people who have recorded/released a lot of great albums) have dropped Pro Tools in favour of Logic, and Logic is close to the top of the "Top Grossing" overview in Apple Store in many countries.

"I've become distrustful of Apple's handling and the lack of communication". Don't let me become distrustful of your lack of communication then, and tell me some details about what you think Logic is missing! :-D

No.1 I don't care if you're distrustful of me or not.

My biggies...

Cross Platform Compatibility.... a must.

Audio/Sample editor from the 21st Centrury (see pic) All functions visible are in play. I'm talking easy of use and functionality. Color can be changed to any preference. I do most of my work in the sample editor as I record people playing/singing, probably have used loops twice in the past 10 years. Occasionally use a software instrument.

Communication with the manufacturer/professional support. Have you ever called Apple with a problem? The last one being a client with a consistent crash problem in the piano roll editor, after hearing "this has never been reported" he was referred to this and another user fourm. LPH I think. Eventually he re-installed Logic from the DVD and upgraded to the previous version from when the problem started and everything was good.

He had d/loaded and saved the upgrade files.

MIDI I/O ports being individually addressed instead of Logic's archaic system. (I don't have to tell you the problems.) We still have a fairly good sized bank of external MIDI modules and keyobards... just because they sound good and we've developed custom sounds over the years.

Quicktime being upgraded to work in 64-bit mode so that export to audio to movie works correctly, It's been over a year now. There's also some other problems with audio to movie even in 32-bit mode, timing is inconsistent. I've gone back to 9.1.3 for the time being.

I'm on the road gigging now (w/PC laptop) and will not be back home until August 20th, will do some more comparisons then.

pic below

"Audio work is far beyond Logic."

Pancenter wrote:

My biggies...

Cross Platform Compatibility.... a must. [...]

Audio/Sample editor from the 21st Centrury (see pic) [...]

Communication with the manufacturer/professional support. [...]

MIDI I/O ports being individually addressed instead of Logic's archaic system. [...]

Quicktime being upgraded to work in 64-bit mode so that export to audio to movie works correctly [...]

Thanks for the list of your "biggies", Pancenter... These were about crossplatform (PC?) support, the sample editor, Apple's customer support, MIDI ports and Quick Time. Thanks for the image too, but unfortunaltey that doesn't tell me much - and since you mainly mention that you can assign colors freely (in the Sample Editor, I guess?) and that the "all functions visible are in play" - which I'm not sure what means, I still look forward to hear what specifically you think Logic is missing in terms of audio editing. Happy gigging!

I wouldn't consider Bounce in Place to be comparable to Audiosuite processing, especially now that it's non destructive and works with tails (new to PT 10). It's great to be able to just apply a plugin to a region directly instead of having to put it on a track then bounce it.

Logic's surround automation is really hard to use, and I'd kill for the ability to have multiple movies in one session and trim them (both in the full version of PT, not the cheaper one).

In general I find PT much faster for editing audio, just the basics of moving audio files around. I'd have to spend some time in PT to make a list of the specifics what is better that I miss in Logic. Probably would be a good thing to do, maybe some of those things are possible in Logic with the right key commands assigned.

and that the "a ll functions visible are in play" - which I'm not sure what means, I still look forward to hear what specifically you think Logic is missing in terms of audio editing. Happy gigging!

All of the items in the left sidebar and all of the items in the drop down, and subsequent menu entries (under the arrow heads in the drop down) are able to be used in the audio editor with a single right click of the mouse, not only that all functions are non-destructive, if so selected by the user. Under the "plugins" menu drop you will find all third party plugins as well as the ones supplied by Steinberg. They can be directly applied to any portion (destructively or not) of the audio without affecting plugin settings on the channel strip.

It's not just one item, it's the package. You have no perspective on the matter because you haven't used both editors for 10 years... I've used Logic far longer than that. It wasn't until about 8 years ago that Steinberg really took a leap forward with their audio editor, before that it was much like Logic's is now.

All I can tell you is there is a vast differencein ease of use and functionality, Like Logic Cubase has an excellent key commands editor, in fact it ships with a set of Logic key commands as well as Sonar and DP.

Key commands are freely assignable.

Not trying to change anyone's mind, but after using both... I feel Logic's sample editor is quite functional but also quite dated in look and feel... and if you do a lot of editing, both of those become important.

Just my opinion.

Mike Connelly wrote:

I wouldn't consider Bounce in Place to be comparable to Audiosuite processing

Pancenter wrote:

All of the items in the left sidebar and all of the items in the drop down, and subsequent menu entries (under the arrow heads in the drop down) are able to be used in the audio editor with a single right click of the mouse, not only that all functions are non-destructive, if so selected by the user. Under the "plugins" menu drop you will find all third party plugins as well as the ones supplied by Steinberg. They can be directly applied to any portion (destructively or not) of the audio without affecting plugin settings on the channel strip.

Both these quotes refer to the Audiosuite thing - the ability to apply plugins to a portion of a file from within the sample editor, which I know some people miss in Logic, and again: of course there's stuff each of the DAWs can do which the other can't. But if eg Cubase should be 'far superior' to Logic, the list of what Cubase can do which Logic can't do should be longer than the list of things Logic can do which Cubase can't do, and in terms of audio editing, you both mainly refer to one feature.

I could of course also mention a few things I'd like to see improved in Logic - or mention things PT or Studio One or Cubase can do which Logic can't - like eg. the ability to apply crossfades to multiple non-grouped files - with the mouse in Arrange, or "Flex Pitch" - but it's the overall picture which interests me. There will always be certain things one DAW does batter does better than another, and this picture changes from update to update.

Here's why I don't consider Bounce In Place a "workaround": I have a large library of personal files on my drives which are 'song indpendent', in that I may use them in different projects, like guitar ambiences, effect sounds, long stretches of grooves in various tempi etc. I like Logic's 'policy' about making it hard to change any of these files destructively, because it prevents accidents, especially for newbies, which may happen if you edit a groove destructively in one song to find two months later that you also used the same groove in another song, and that the edit you made destroyed how that groove worked in Project B. And of course we have backups and can copy files into project folders, but I don't think Logic doesn't have plugins available in the Sample Editor becuse they can't do it - it has been designed that way for a reason.

But of course: a way to apply plugins to a portion of a sample in the sample editor non-destructivelt would be somehow nice - if that same file used in another project would still sound like the original. This is where Logic and eg. Cubase may differ: In Logic, edits which are relevant for the current arrangement only are (usually) made in the Arrange window. If you want to edit the actual sample, you (usually) edit it in the samsle editor. It's a simple and logical workflow. So if I want to edit a portion of Groove X in my current project, I select that portion in the Arrange window with the Marquee Tool, and BIP it. The original is intact, and I'll hear the effects on that region only/in the current project only- and may still use the edited version in other projects, if I want to.

I'm not saying that Apple won't change this - I'm sure they will will if enough users want it. But we're mainly talking about one feature here, and while Cubase may also be great for audio editing, one feature - a feature which many DAWs and sound editors have had for years, and which probably would be easy to implement in Logic, doesn't make some DAW far superior to another.

"It's not just one item, it's the package. You have no perspective on the matter [...] etc. No, I don't know Cubase much, so I ask for a Top 10 list of audio editing goodies Cubase has which Logic doesn't. :-)

"All I can tell you is there is a vast differencein ease of use and functionality, Like Logic Cubase has an excellent key commands editor, in fact it ships with a set of Logic key commands as well as Sonar and DP.

Key commands are freely assignable."

Great, but that example doesn't illustrate that 'vast difference', it illustrates a similarity. :-)

"In general I find PT much faster for editing audio, just the basics of moving audio files around. I'd have to spend some time in PT to make a list of the specifics what is better that I miss in Logic. Probably would be a good thing to do, maybe some of those things are possible in Logic with the right key commands assigned."

Yes - this is where it would get interesting, and relevant to the question about whether a major update of Logic is needed to make it great for audio editing. I think Logic is excellent for audio work, and you haven't posted anything which would make me, for one, even consider Cubase or feel that Logic 9 is stuck - or 'far inferior' in any way. Assigning colors to the Sample Editor or that Cubase also lets you assign keycommand isn't relevant to me, and personally I don't miss the ability to apply plugin sdirectly in the sample editor. Maybe I would if I was used to it.

Until someone posts a list of audio editing features which makes eg. Cubase or PT appear as 'far superior' to Logic - a list which is longer than the list of things I like in Logic but which eg PT or Cubase can't do, I'm a very happy Logic user. Logic surely needs improvements in the Score department, improved handling of movie related work and more, but that doesn't make Logic an inferior DAW. It just means that Logic, like all other DAWs, needs and will get updates.

One: Apple doesnt make ANYONE purchase their products, that's a choice.

Two: Everything man-made is going to have glitches, I appreciate Apple taking their time to "fix" the current problems of the current DAW/OS X, instead of just moving onto the next product "to sale to the masses"....their about "quality" over keeping up with the jone's.

3rd: I upgraded to Mountain Lion, it has huge glitches...

Know what I did, I re-installed Lion...I'm back up to creating...it's that simple. Seriously.

***what did you expect from this forum, and I use PT also...but Logic is my main DAW***

Until someone posts a list of audio editing features which makes eg. Cubase or PT appear as 'far superior' to Logic - a list which is longer than the list of things I like in Logic but which eg PT or Cubase can't do, I'm a very happy Logic user. Logic surely needs improvements in the Score department, improved handling of movie related work and more, but that doesn't make Logic an inferior DAW. It just means that Logic, like all other DAWs, needs and will get updates.

If you would stop blindly defending Logic you might be able to see a bigger picture, and since you've never used Cubase (or PT) you have no basis of comparison, furthermore... a vast difference in ease of use and functionality is not quantitative... it's not a list, it's a quality and I stand by everything I've said, I've used both Logic (since 2,5) and Cubase (since 3.5) for years, I know and understand the difference for the way I like to work, as of this point in time, you do not. If you did a lot of audio editing and were equally familiar with both programs and could be remotely objective you might just agree.

What's funny is, I'm a happy Logic user too but that doesn't mean I need to defend it or can't see it's shortcomings. The fact is, people who record music and musicians are moving away from Logic, people that program music and use loops and software instruments are generally sticking with Logic or Ableton. Stick your nose into several Logic forums and you will see the same pattern emerging. You can blame part of this on Apple's total lack of communication.

So - since you probably know Logic well - your post made me curious about what specifically it is that you think PT does better than Logic 9.... not as in 'mixing', 'audio editing' etc, but as in... details! :-)

Hi ZXC, nice to meet someone polite online.

To give you perspective from where my opinion stems, I never actually upgraded to L9 for various reasons, the most part being I felt the new features failed to impress me, I'm not the type of engineer to rush out and upgrade for the sake of upgrading, I'm still using little old 8, it satisfies my needs for music programming and song production, as I mentioned for that craft PT doesnt touch Logic.

It's funny that PT users can't actually put their finger on what makes PT a better audio editor than Logic. I actually teach Tools at Fox Studios here in Sydney and I think the most part of what I enjoy teaching those who are new to PT is the smart tool. It simply makes me feel comfortable with my UI, it allows me to move swiftly and quickly which is vital in high pressure broadcasting environments. Working on live shows, live simulcasts and live broadcasts as well as tvc and radio production.

The smart tool allows me to move seemlessley around my page with ease when making promos and commercials, even megamixes. The best way to desctibe it could be, and this sounds funny, 'LUBE', its almost as everything on the page is lubricated and you glide and slide from one task to the next. I dont have to press tab and wait .5 of a second for the drop down menu to presents itself in otrder to change tools nor do i have to press another key to change tools which was a down fall of Logic. PT cursor actually adapts and turns into many different tools depending on where you hold the cursor.

To give you an idea why this Smart Tool works for me, I can maximise a region non destructively, apply a unique fade in relation to its purpose, slide it to a new start point, roll it to a new track either above or below (or on the same track) select a portion of that region (highlight it) and seperate it from the region itself and repeat the previous actiona, all with in 1 to 2 seconds with one hand and never changing tools. The smart tool actually pre-empts your next move given where the cursor sits.

Now this is not the only function which makes me believe it's better than Logic in the editing department, I simply do not have the time to defend a debate, it's counter productive. But happy to list the above to give you some small insight since were chatting 🙂. While logic has definitely improved it's work flow in the last 5 years it's still clunky and choppy to operate in for audio editing. And on a side note, PT is also the preffered choice in broadcasting amoung professionals in broadcasting, that's not to say some engineers dont use alternatives and so they shold if they learned a different DAW, clearly thats where their strengths are.

I could list more, but as i mentioned mate, it's counter productive my end. But if you would like to hear some of my PT production check my work out here 🙂http://kcbproductions.net/audio-music.php🙂 Prefferably press play on the third file from the top, that has some good variety.

I dont have time to proof read, so it may have been typo heavy 🙂

Message was edited by: Bakernator for link details.

since you've never used Cubase (or PT) you have no basis of comparison, furthermore... a vast difference in ease of use and functionality is not quantitative... it's not a list, it's a quality and I stand by everything I've said, I've used both Logic (since 2,5) and Cubase (since 3.5) for years, I know and understand the difference for the way I like to work, as of this point in time, you do not. If you did a lot of audio editing and were equally familiar with both programs and could be remotely objective you might just agree.

What's funny is, I'm a happy Logic user too but that doesn't mean I need to defend it or can't see it's shortcomings. The fact is, people who record music and musicians are moving away from Logic, people that program music and use loops and software instruments are generally sticking with Logic or Ableton. Stick your nose into several Logic forums and you will see the same pattern emerging. You can blame part of this on Apple's total lack of communication.

Well said, I share your sentiment. From a PT & L user myself (also Live, Acid, Coole edit, triple dat and reel to reel many years ago), I would love to admit using cubase but that was at a time when I had to load Cubase on floppy discs, which is embaressing.... hang on... i just admi....

lol 🙂

PS(it is rather funny [not pointing finger just in general] the amount of people who defend software when they only know one.

Wow. There's a lot of tennis going on in our inbox this morning! And it's a little dull.

Just use what you know well and what's appropriate for the job and just make sure you're compatible with your dub (so people like I don't end up fixing-up your job)!

ps: Baker, I suspect we are the same age:

Starting in 1987, I raise you a:

/Supertrack on the C64 🙂

/4 Track Tascam Tape

/Roland W-30

/Cubasis 😟

/Micrologic 🙂

/Logic

/Performer

/Logic and PT

/Logic, Kyma, PT, Albeton 😀

ps: Baker, I suspect we are the same age:

Starting in 1987, I raise you a:

/Supertrack on the C64 🙂

/4 Track Tascam Tape

/Roland W-30

/Cubasis 😟

/Micrologic 🙂

/Logic

/Performer

/Logic and PT

/Logic, Kyma, PT, Albeton 😀

Hah! Your hand is the strongest, I fold. 🙂