Java and Ipad

Singaporejames, I concur completely. Besides, every security hole that appears has been quickly plugged and rarely exploited -- unlike email clients and browsers. This security hole issue wrt Java has been blown out of proportion and broadcast by a group of Java haters. Wish I knew what it is about Java that angers them so.

@Ralph, Apple has long taken a view that it would like to control COMPLETELY the user experience on its computers. The original IBM PC succeeded mostly because IBM took the opposite view and even published the electronics and ROM code.

Apple does indeed dictate what you run on your Apple devices. Read the Steve Jobs biography to see just how blatant and unapologetic they are about it. Apple does not pretend otherwise. Why anyone should suggest that they don't makes no sense to me.

Until Apple came along, the concept of taking "decisions that will enable them to preserve the user experience" was uheard of. Everyone was used to the idea that you buy a piece of "iron" and put whatever software you choose on it. Apple is not concerned about preserving the user experience but in preserving their profits.

No Java on iPad was a Jobs decision. Just as with his decision not to have surgery, it was made for personal and emotional reasons. It cut off large segments of available software, especially in education. It was not done for the users in any way.

LAZY!!! ???

Wow, that's pretty strong. How about companies that would just like to stay in business?

The reason for platform-agnostic development is to save on maintenance costs. You have to employ experts on each platform (with some handiing more than one) and update each and every platform whenever you make a change.

Creating and maintaining 20,000 lines of client code along with 20,000 lines of server code plus the database structure, over 3,000 quiz questions and answers, over 1,500 videos, and much more is difficult enough without having those 20,000 lines of client code written separately for each platform.

We're not after the snazziest user experience here, just a good solid easy-to-use user experience. You can call that the "lowest common denominator" if you wish, but I call it common sense and staying in business.

Java is not a "feature." It's a language in which to create software. I'm not interested in Flash because it's a mess that uses a scripting language and encourages poor development habits.

BTW, what do you think of HTML5 if you dislike platform-agnostic technologies. It's allowed on the iPad, after all.

I am really sick of the Apple apologists and Apple chauvinists, like you Mrs. Miggins, telling me how my business should be run. I was doing software before you were born and have been involved in every major innovation in the business. Allowing Java on the iPad would in no way compromise the ability of Apple to innovate. Oracle has already demonstrated Java on the iPad, but Apple won't let them deploy it. It's that simple.

I really hope that Apple stubs their toes on this one and that other tablets emerge (the advanced version of the Surface is the first I've seen) that allow Java. Java is central to a great deal of excellent Internet software. Excluding it just for spite is stupid. I look forward to seeing that Apple has "cut off its nose to spite its face."

I get it that you all are in love with Apple. Love is blind.

<Edited by Host>

Name calling won't make you right ("Troll" indeed!).

Much of what you say actually is correct. It's the final conclusions with which I take exception. Java has evolved considerably over its lifetime and remains "new" today. The lack of Java on these devices you attribute to some sage decision when it actually is the result of lawsuits and bad blood between companies. You've found an excuse for something that you prefer. That's a common mistake in thinking.

I have worked in very many languages and have found Java appealing for a number of reasons. However, I switch quickly IF you can show me a platform-agnostic language in which I can create and maintain 20,000 lines of source code efficiently and which will operate efficiently on the various platforms, and you give me a resonable migration path, then I will gleefully change. Java, per se, is not the issue. It's having a platform-agnostic language that has the power to support real-world serious applications.

I've asked a few people for this solution and have sought out such solutions. So far, no one has shown me an alternative that I can use. I don't care about Java but about practical results.

Apple initiated this idea that you cannot write whatever you choose on their particular piece of HARDWARE. It may have worked, but it's nuts, IMO. Apple is a great marketing engine with some good technologists to build stuff that Jobs insisted could be built. Its products are as much (or more) about appearance than performance and capability.

My market is education, not stuff that jumps off of some online software store. I don't ever expect to sell through that channel because I sell a service, not a product or piece of software.

Wow so you think that by having flash an java that our Internet experience would be diminished some how. That a java an flash plugin would inhibit our browsers to do what exactly. What would I not be able to do if those 2 plugins, add-ons, bit off code were allowed on my iPad or iPhone? Please tell me because I can only find pros to having it.

Yes the only other mobile platforms are android and windows and they both allow java an flash plugins or the ability to have third party browsers that support it. Why, because we the consumer are right, we want and we'll apple will eventually bend, googles android OS will force their hand as long as Samsung htc and others keep producing the outstanding devices we have seen lately

5 and 1/2 years and counting. You are way late to this argument.

There is no way for Apple to "bend" on Flash, or get a Flash plugin, as Adobe shut down the mobile Flash division, laid off 400 workers, and is not producing code for mobile Flash.

As far as Java, even when the iPhone was released there were many threads regarding Flash, maybe one concerning Java. There was media coverage regarding the iPhone not having Flash. There was almost none regarding Java. There were adds to sell other tablets that stressed the fact they had Flash. They didn't mention Java (and it didn't work for most of them).

People have a choice. If they need Java they can buy a device that has it. Apple has made their choice not to offer it.

Really cause I just installed the latest flash update on my galaxy s3 an the latest java on my MacBook and with AIDE (thank you open minded and forward thinking developers) I can use my android device to access most java sites. At the end of all this it will be those who can not compromise to meet the desires of the consumer who will fall...We the consumer don't care about the corporate posturing between oracle, Microsoft, apple or google. We just want to be able to view websites and not be irritated by error msgs telling us this or that.

I have worked in IT for 20 years and I totally get the idea that we know better an should dictate to others what and how they should use their computers, networks, devices, etc...because we know what's best... 20 years and I will admit it now....WE ARE WRONG....apple didn't limit java and or flash for the good an protection of us consumers.....they didn't because they can play nice with others an vice versa.

The company i work for provided me an iPad, I love my MacBook Air...osx still supports flash, java, MS's silver light, and many more...the day it doesn't and there are sites that I go to that still utilize one of these I will happily change platforms. I want what works and I don't care who makes it!!! My loyalty goes to the best product. I am using my iPad to argue with you and read a book and that's about it... When I change companies giving this back won't phase me least.

Your favorite Internet troll has come back. Haha.

I see many arguments from Java haters. Still cannot figure out why they hate Java. Perhaps, someone can enlighten.

One argument says Java is old. However, Mac OS X runs on Unix, which is much, much older. Java has evolved and really is much different that its first release and continues to grow.

Another argument is about security. I've seen some pretty bad security breaches in browsers. Why don't you tell people not to use them?

Then, there'e popularity. Sure, many more people are aware of Flash. It's available for consumers and at their level of consciousness. Java is strictly for programmers, real ones who don't just write scripting languages. Of course you'll find fewer programmers than consumers. Duh!

Another argument is about writing the "best" (meaning shiniest) software by customizing for the given platform in the native language for that platform. If you really are concerned about being a native, how about going back to the 1960s and writing in machine language -- all hex? Having some particular feature that's available only on one platform may seem cool, but it's just silly and puts you under the yoke of that manufacturer. You're flogging their hardware for them, becoming their shill.

A final argument has to do with vendors not wanting to go to the trouble of putting Java on their machines. However, for the iPad and for Android, Oracle has already done that. The vendors are blocking release.

My challenge still stands. No one has taken it up. Show me a powerful and platform-agnostic development language other than Java. Scripting languages need not apply. Java already runs on the iPad and Android. So, in theory, it still can be that language. However, computer-industry politics prevent it. Apple is a very stubborn company. I'm not surprised that it's still holding out against all of the developers, many Apple stalwarts in the past, who have asked them for Java on tablets.

We'll just see what transpires. Will the iPad cave as it loses market share? Wait and see. In the meantime, if you're a Java developer or user, put a little pressure on Apple. As much as they'd like to chain developers to their platform, they care more about actual sales than about marketing strategies. I certainly will vote with my wallet and will continue to write Apple and on Apple forums that Apple should just allow (not put) Java on the iPad. I'm doing the same with Google.

You must have a lot of time to waste. Guess the Java market is not doing too well.

Writing here will accomplish nothing. Apple doesn't read these posts.

Apple doesn't even include a Java plugin with their computers anymore. And they will never add it to iOS, especially given the success of the App Store.

End of argument.

So, who's wasting time? At least I'm promoting a cause. And success is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

HarryKeller wrote:

So, who's wasting time? At least I'm promoting a cause. And success is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

You are not promoting a cause. You are flogging a dead horse.

LOL!

"... it doesn't bother me in the slightest if they do that." And it shouldn't. We agree here.

"... I want to benefit from software that takes advantage of those features, otherwise what is the point of buying any particular device over any other?" The device becomes a "commodity," a fate that Apple strives hard (with tons of marketing dollars and image-oriented development) to avoid. They're succeeding as your posts suggest. It's hard to argue with success. But, I do it anyway. :-)

"So iPad marketshare is likely to continue going down for the foreseeable future ..." Yes, mathematically unavoidable, but revenue is more important. When that starts to decline, it will make a difference.

"... even if Apple allowed Java on the iPad, it would make zero difference to the iPad's marketshare." That's unproven. However, if you were to argue that the difference would not be significant to Apple's share prices, I'd have to agree. Java eduation applications are a fraction of all education applications (more are in Flash), and education is minute compared to consumers. Apple's success has innoculated them. They don't have to care about education.

"There are much higher priorities on consumers wishlists." Absolutely agree. Most consumes don't even know what Java is. They also don't know what Objective C is.

"You're looking at this from a software developers point of view." You're right here too. Used to be that Apple cared about developers. Now, they care about forcing developers to write software that will only run on Apple devices. While not a tyranny, it does demonstrate a tyrannical attitude. I understand the motivation, which has been around for a very long time in one company or another. Microsoft tried the same thing and actively worked to defeat Java. They lost. Of course, that was eons ago in Internet time. ;-)

"... not the developers still using Java." That's what irks me. There's more to operating a company than just watching next quarter's revenue and profit margins. Apple is pushing aside a large international group of developers who work in Java and do so for many good reasons. Yes, there are also reasons to write in other ways, but the spaces are not congruent. There remains plenty of good rationale for Java. Look at the "Powered by Java" stickers on many electronic consumer devices for just one example.

"The iPad isn't lacking software without Java." Here's where we disagree. I agree that the iPad has plenty of software, too much actually. The class of applications that do not run on an iPad is a small fraction of the whole world of potential applications. Many will not miss these at all. Almost all will not even know that they're missing. So, Apple's front-end strategy of laser-like market focus will work just fine.

"If the software you make isn't available on the iPad, something similar is likely to be from another developer." You cannot know that in any way imaginable. Not only is nothing like my software available on the iPad, there's nothing like it available anywhere. Furthermore, no one is likely to invest over a million dollars to create it for a subset of a subset of the education marketplace. Creating an iPad-only version of the software would make a subset of the subset of a subset and result in too few sales to justify the hefty price of creation. Easy solutions like HTML5 will have terrible performance and create maintenance nightmares. The iPad will have morphed into something quite different by the time that I have any worries here.

"... quickly embrace these new/different methods of writing their applications for these new devices ..." You misunderstand the education marketplace if you believe this. It's extremely conservative as a whole. Besides the "new/different methods" are going to change rapidly, and the huge cost of creating my software would never be repaid in a splinter market such as this one. Vaadin (from Finland) and Code Name One (from Israel) are better approaches than attempting to rewrite 20,000 lines of Java for a very uncertain return.

"You take a 'wait and see' attitude, and others will eagerly jump ahead of you." That's the last thing I'm doing. I was just suggesting that things will change sooner rather than later. As I cannot scientifically prove my case (and neither can you), I just mentioned that time will tell. As things stand, I know my views are correct, although I agree on many of your points (just not on many of the conclusions), but also know that time will either prove me correct or show an entirely new way that neither of us has mentioned.

Apple can get away with dissing a large segment of the most advanced software developers in the world, but they shouldn't. Just because you can is not a reason for doing. Anyway, I expect that 3rd-party efforts, OpenJDK, or a resolution of the bad blood between companies will provide ways to continue to support the millions of lines of Java code out there. It already has to a partial extent.

I'll just add one more small note. The rest of the world is not quite so enamored with the iPad as the U.S. This is especially true in countries with lower per-capita income. Turkey is deploying tablets to every single school child, and they're decidedly not iPads.

My challenge stands unanswered. Show me the platform-agnostic and powerful (not scripted) language that I can use in place of Java and give me a migration path. The only ones I have heard of use the JVM.

What point is there to your challenge? Become a developer, use the SDK, write apps for iOS.