Finally Image comp. Canon Vs Sony HDV!

If you are going to shoot sports with lots of action, etc... I'd shy away from HDV altogether... Panasonic's HD P2 format or better is where you should be looking I'd think.

Jerry

I'd agree with Jerry. HDV's MPEG-2 compression scheme doesn't handle fast motion well at all - no matter which HDV camera you're considering.

-DH

I'd go with what the others have written as well -

UNLESS - you were to use the SDI out of the Canon - which is the principal reason for a lot of sales of this camera.

The original Canon promo for this camera was shot this way. They used the SDI out and recorded to dvcpro.

So more than one way to skin a cat ....

that dread word "sports" was mentioned round here somewhere.

i just saw an hvx200 the other day, here is my little mini-review for what it's worth http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=1991844#1991844

also for what it's worth, i've seen what happens to hdv and action and it's not pretty; that i-frame compression completely falls apart. but, if i were you i'd rent an hdv cam and the hvx and see what trips your trigger most (i'm not a gambling man but i'll wager right now the hvx will win this one hands down!).

i'm wanting to arrange it so the i can get the hvx200 on a job and get that dvcpro hd video switched into a show with my hd studio cams, the only little bugaboo is getting dvcpro hd native video out of a prosumer camera into hd frame-syncs or non-firewire equipped hdcam tape machines; i've not been able to track down a firewire -> hdsdi converter.

to be blunt, don't waste your time with hdv and sports.

zeb

For sports in this price range, I would recommend JVC HD100. Neither the Sony, Canon or Panasonic would work as well for sports for a number of reasons.

It has a true manual lens which is f1.4 throughout its range. With this lens it outperforms all other 1/3" cameras in low light by about 2 stops at telephoto. The lens and viewfinder with "focus assist" is 100x easier to focus than the silly servo focusing lenses. Over the shoulder design is a must for sports venues where tripods aren't allowed (basketball). It can send a 60P uncompressed signal out it's Component Ports for Broadcast standard productions which need serious slow motion. DV stretch mode adds 1.5 stops of low light performance over the HD mode when needed. It's the only true progressive scan camera of the batch that uses tape (P2 is difficult for field work), so time remapping footage is far more pleasing to the eye. It shoots native 24P when you need it. It can take IBX or Anton Bauer batteries. The camera is said to have the most film-like response curves-especially in the highlights. Read the shootout at DV.com for more on this. With all the cameras mentioned, turn down sharpening to get a more natural look.

Enough said.

Then next best solution would be an SD 1/2" camera in the 15K range. If you can afford an XL1H, you should consider one of these.

Another thing. The JVC allows you to shoot in a 480P 60fps mode (sometimes called EDTV). This is a great alternative to standard 60i when you plan on showing slow motion. You can bring this footage in as 60P, then conform it to 24P in cinema tools for a killer "over crank" look. I would recommend this format for anything that might need time stretching.

I just heard it has less resolution than the others
or something like that...

The tests I've seen place it at the top of the crop for resolution since it has a native widescreen sensor. 720 horizontal lines off the sensor. HDV may be what reduces the resolution a bit, but it's still way above HDTV spec.

And what about that compression problem here referred
that might be ugly for sports?

Yes. HDV is not great for action. JVC's version of HDV is different from the rest in that it uses a shorter GOP and records in Progressive frames. Both of these result in a better version of HDV than the rest, but it is still HDV. The real problem with HDV is that you can't get 60P at HD resolution on to tape. You could send the signal out the component outs and record a 60P signal to tape externally, but I don't think this is what you have in mind. My solution is to shoot the sports footage in SD 480P mode, or if the action is very high, revert to DV which shoots 60i without any interframe compression. This would also be easier to handle on the post side. In SD modes, the HD100 is more sensitive to light since it adds up more than one pixel to make up a single DV pixel. This gain is over a stop. The HD100 makes an excellent DV camera as well for those times when you don't need the HD features.

What about the connectivity to FCP, codecs and
workflow is it flawless? Whit what interface?

No workflow is flawless in my experience. You need to be flexible.

HDV 24P isn't supported yet, but DV 24P is. Many believe we are just a month or so away from having full 24P HDV support in FCP. Remember, when in doubt, or for the next few months, you can shoot in old reliable DV or 30P. HDV 30P capture and editing is very easy and quite seemless.

I really need no nightmare tricks like capture in a
software than transport to another format, bla, bla.

There will always be problems with anything HD in FCP. It's a tricky standard. Don't expect anything different with HDV.

Any information on that?

Most of the time we'll have to deliver the local TVs
some News tapes on the very same evening and we
usually use for that a simple 17" Laptop with FCP and
DV-Cam recorder.
Will it also work nicely with that setup?

Yes. but the HDV CODEC will be slow editing on a PB. You might choose to use the Apple Intermediate COCEC instead.

Can I shoot HDV and capture in DV codec for this
purposes saving the original footage for later better
quality edit?

No. You will need a capture board such as Kona to do this live at capture. Firewire just transfers raw data. It doesn't allow live transcoding of formats. You can easily batch convert your HDV footage to DV using Compressor or the like once it's captured. Remember HD is widescreen and SD is usually 4x3. Mixing them up can result in problems with having to crop edges off the HD footage.

Remember that most news stations prefer Beta SP. You can get a killer 1/2" Beta SP rig for under $10K on auction sites.

This is just my opinion, so please don't take my word as final. You should try the camera at a local store before buying it.

However, the SDI option requires a life feed for uncompressed. Otherwise, you are simply getting uncompressed HDV from the tape.

Exactly - and IMO and fwiw - is the only reason for buying this camera.

Ditto... Robbosaur. The pictures are pretty as long as you don't need to do any keying or fast motion... or you capture the live feed HD (which wouldn't be my favorite workflow), and then you need so much more gear you might as well have shot with a true HD camera in the first place...

Jerry

"then you need so much more gear you might as well have shot with a true HD camera in the first place..."

It just goes on and on, doesn't it Jerry ?
With arrival of the shoulder mounted HD Sony's and Pannys imminent, I wonder how many of those Canons will end up on eBay - maybe none, I know the guys who have them pretty much love them.

Just thought I'd point out the live sdi option that is on-board if our poster was Canon-inclined.

Gotta say without any hesitation... the HVX200 P2 camera's specs and picture quality-per-buck (new high tech term) is the most exciting camera out there under the cost of a new BMW...

Jerry

I like it - was following closely across on the p2 board and dld'g furiously all the native clips when kaku and the other guys were first posting.

Gotta say though that I'm eagerly awaiting the announcement of the Aj HD2000, I think they're calling it. More money, sure - but a whole heap more camera, too.
That announcement at NAB is likely to have some impact on the 615/700/800 dvc pro cam 25/50 prices.
Then there's the Red cmos cam price announcement expected as well.

So - partners, keep yer powder dry and credit card handy ...
there will be too much choice I suspect.