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  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    Here's why most of you probably WANT it to be the software that is causing the problem.

     

    If it is the hardware at fault, then you can only submit a claim under the hardware warranty.  But if your hardware warranty is expired, then you don't get a free replacement.

     

    So, you look for another cause.  And so you blame the iOS.  And you think that will get you somewhere, because the iOS is new, so it must have some form of guarantee.

     

    But then the Terms & Conditions that you agreed to, which clearly state that updating your iOS is not required by Apple, and you agree to take full responsibility for any and all consequences associated with said update, put a huge roadblock in front of you.  And you're unhappy.  And I understand why you're unhappy.  I wouldn't want it to happen to me, or anyone else. 

     

    But it did happen.  And you have to work within the system, that you agreed to.  Trying to ignore the rules that you agreed to is similar to ignoring a state law that you disagree with. 

     

    You chose to live in that state.  Therefore, you agree to abide by the laws.

     

    You chose to to purchase an iPhone, and update the iOS.  Therefore, you agree to abide by the warranty and the terms & conditions.

     

    Am I sympathetic to those that are affected by this?  Yes, I am.  But do I think that Apple is REQUIRED to do anything about it?  No.  Would it be the 'right' thing to do, though?  Of course, in certain circumstances.  And Apple does, in certain circumstances, grant an exception to certain customers.

     

    Guess which customers usually get the exception?  The ones that present their case in a rational & calm manner, and ask politely for a consideration, and are not too far outside of their warranty period.  When the decision to grant an out-of-warranty exception is at the SOLE DISCRETION of the other party, then it's wise to approach with respect and a rational state of mind.  Contrary to popular belief, the angry customer that storms in, demanding something, doesn't often get it.

     

    When you do talk to someone from Apple, try a little honey instead of vinegar.  You might actually get somewhere.

  • pwrchord Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    How does a hair dryer affect software?  It doesn't.  The code isn't being re-written by a hairdryer.

    The problem is caused by heat, causing a PHYSICAL conneciton to break (i.e., a solder point).  The problem is sometimes solved by heat as well, causing the physical connection (i.e., the solder point) to reconnect.

     

    -thanks for confirming your knolwedge of cold solder joints for us.

  • tomski84 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    Your anaolgy is ridiculous.  If you buy milk, and then use it after the expiration date, and then it's no good, then you don't have much recourse.  Open it up before the expiration date and it's bad, then you return it.  After the expiration date, oh well. 

     

    Your example implies that you open it as soon as you get it, and it's bad.  Then, of course, in that situation, you get a free replacement.  Have you EVER had a situation where a product was defective within its warranty period (or prior to its expiration date), and you were told you can't get a replacement?  Has Apple told ANYONE that is still within their warranty period (other than those devices that had some form of unauthorized modification/service or damage) that they can't get a free replacement?

     

    I'm not going to debate the difference in the consumer laws between the U.S. and Europe.  I've previously stated that the warranty period should be longer for Apple products.  My opinion on WHAT the warranty should be is not the point.  The point is what the warranty ACTUALLY IS.  Every single person that purchased an iPhone 4S agreed to the warranty at time of purchase.  But now that there's a problem, they want a different deal.

     

    Reminds me of a certain Sith Lord: "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

     

    You don't get to alter the deal after you've made it, Darth Tomski.  It is what it is.  If you didn't like it at time of purchase, then you shouldn't have bought the product.  Apple doesn't hide the warranty or terms of service. It's part of the activation process on every product I can think of.  You can't even UPDATE to iOS 7 without agreeing to the T&C.

     

    You entered into a legal agreement.  Want to change it?  Ask for the other side to make a concession, or get a lawyer.  Ranting on this forum does you absolutely no good.

     

    The analogy might verge on the point of ridiculous, but it conveys what I was trying to point out. I think you're clinging onto the wrong end of my analogy stick. You wouldn't buy milk expecting it to be off before it's use-by, and I certainly wouldn't buy an expensive iPhone 4S expecting that to be defective, six months or even two years down the line, and the EU seems to agree with me. The point I was trying to make (if vaguely) was that an iPhone's "use by" is certainly longer than a year, and that's a perfectly reasonable statement to make, even more so when the fault is not caused by the user but by the manufacture/maintanence of the product.

     

    I wouldn't call it ranting, I would call it an expression of my disappointment with Apple. Tomato, tomatoe.

     

    I'll let you other guys know what happens when I return to the Apple store, no doubt I'll get another faulty replacement, but I live in hope.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    pwrchord wrote:

     

    -thanks for confirming your knolwedge of cold solder joints for us.

     

    You're very welcome.  I'm glad I could be of assistance today.

    Perhaps you should have been the one to educate Trent on that subject?  Or were you willing to just let his misconception slide by? LOL.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    tomski84 wrote:

     

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    Your anaolgy is ridiculous.  If you buy milk, and then use it after the expiration date, and then it's no good, then you don't have much recourse.  Open it up before the expiration date and it's bad, then you return it.  After the expiration date, oh well. 

     

    Your example implies that you open it as soon as you get it, and it's bad.  Then, of course, in that situation, you get a free replacement.  Have you EVER had a situation where a product was defective within its warranty period (or prior to its expiration date), and you were told you can't get a replacement?  Has Apple told ANYONE that is still within their warranty period (other than those devices that had some form of unauthorized modification/service or damage) that they can't get a free replacement?

     

    I'm not going to debate the difference in the consumer laws between the U.S. and Europe.  I've previously stated that the warranty period should be longer for Apple products.  My opinion on WHAT the warranty should be is not the point.  The point is what the warranty ACTUALLY IS.  Every single person that purchased an iPhone 4S agreed to the warranty at time of purchase.  But now that there's a problem, they want a different deal.

     

    Reminds me of a certain Sith Lord: "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

     

    You don't get to alter the deal after you've made it, Darth Tomski.  It is what it is.  If you didn't like it at time of purchase, then you shouldn't have bought the product.  Apple doesn't hide the warranty or terms of service. It's part of the activation process on every product I can think of.  You can't even UPDATE to iOS 7 without agreeing to the T&C.

     

    You entered into a legal agreement.  Want to change it?  Ask for the other side to make a concession, or get a lawyer.  Ranting on this forum does you absolutely no good.

     

    The analogy might verge on the point of ridiculous, but it conveys what I was trying to point out. I think you're clinging onto the wrong end of my analogy stick. You wouldn't buy milk expecting it to be off before it's use-by, and I certainly wouldn't buy an expensive iPhone 4S expecting that to be defective, six months or even two years down the line, and the EU seems to agree with me. The point I was trying to make (if vaguely) was that an iPhone's "use by" is certainly longer than a year, and that's a perfectly reasonable statement to make, even more so when the fault is not caused by the user but by the manufacture/maintanence of the product.

     

    I wouldn't call it ranting, I would call it an expression of my disappointment with Apple. Tomato, tomatoe.

     

    I'll let you other guys know what happens when I return to the Apple store, no doubt I'll get another faulty replacement, but I live in hope.

     

     

    You're confusing 'personal expectations' with 'warranty duration'.  I don't argue that a reasonable expectation is that the device operate properly, under normal conditions, for longer than one year.

     

    What I'm saying is that DEMANDING that Apple do something is pointless, because you, and every other iPhone purchaser, AGREED to the warranty duration, as part of the purchase agreement, under whatever rules the local laws of the land limit.

     

    In essence, you told Apple, when you bought the device, that your 'personal expectation' coincided with the 'warranty duration'.  But now, you've changed your mind after the deal was complete.  It's no different than buying a car from a dealership, agreeing to a price, then a month later deciding you want a different price.  You made a deal, and they are not required, at all, to change the deal.

     

    Does that mean that you can't ask them to change it?  Of course not.  But there's a difference between ASKING and DEMANDING.

  • pwrchord Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Why are you on this thread again?  Do you have an effected iphone?

     

    ps - there was tongue in cheek on the cold solder joint - bending/heating would work on a transistor radio from 1962 but HIGHLY unlikely to repeatedly work on a minaturized, wave soldered PCB inside an iphone.  But since you're up on that, you probably know this.

  • tomski84 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    You're confusing 'personal expectations' with 'warranty duration'.  I don't argue that a reasonable expectation is that the device operate properly, under normal conditions, for longer than one year.

     

    What I'm saying is that DEMANDING that Apple do something is pointless, because you, and every other iPhone purchaser, AGREED to the warranty duration, as part of the purchase agreement, under whatever rules the local laws of the land limit.

     

    In essence, you told Apple, when you bought the device, that your 'personal expectation' coincided with the 'warranty duration'.  But now, you've changed your mind after the deal was complete.  It's no different than buying a car from a dealership, agreeing to a price, then a month later deciding you want a different price.  You made a deal, and they are not required, at all, to change the deal.

     

    Does that mean that you can't ask them to change it?  Of course not.  But there's a difference between ASKING and DEMANDING.

    No confusion, I'm aware of the differences between my expectations and their warranty period. No demanding either, I work in customer service, so I'm painfully aware of the pitfalls of being an idiot to the person trying to help you out. I am also aware of their terms and conditions, but the fact is, no contract can override the law, plain and simple. Under EU law, I certainly have a case! Not sure about the US mind.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    pwrchord wrote:

     

    Why are you on this thread again?  Do you have an effected iphone?

     

    ps - there was tongue in cheek on the cold solder joint - bending/heating would work on a transistor radio from 1962 but HIGHLY unlikely to repeatedly work on a minaturized, wave soldered PCB inside an iphone.  But since you're up on that, you probably know this.

     

    Really?  Heat has no effect on wave soldering?  Hmm, interesting. 

    You're wrong, of course.  By why bother citing sources; you'll just ignore them.

     

    And I never said it works repeatedly, or all the time.  It works sometimes, not all the time.  And I'm not even the one that recommended it in the first place.  Because it's an unauthorized service, I do NOT recommend it.

     

    Why don't you explain to me why the hairdryer method works sometimes?  And why don't you explain to me how the software can cause a problem in one iPhone 4S, but not another?  And how the software causes a problem that is fixed (as reported by multiple people on this forum) with a hair dryer?

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    tomski84 wrote:

     

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    You're confusing 'personal expectations' with 'warranty duration'.  I don't argue that a reasonable expectation is that the device operate properly, under normal conditions, for longer than one year.

     

    What I'm saying is that DEMANDING that Apple do something is pointless, because you, and every other iPhone purchaser, AGREED to the warranty duration, as part of the purchase agreement, under whatever rules the local laws of the land limit.

     

    In essence, you told Apple, when you bought the device, that your 'personal expectation' coincided with the 'warranty duration'.  But now, you've changed your mind after the deal was complete.  It's no different than buying a car from a dealership, agreeing to a price, then a month later deciding you want a different price.  You made a deal, and they are not required, at all, to change the deal.

     

    Does that mean that you can't ask them to change it?  Of course not.  But there's a difference between ASKING and DEMANDING.

    No confusion, I'm aware of the differences between my expectations and their warranty period. No demanding either, I work in customer service, so I'm painfully aware of the pitfalls of being an idiot to the person trying to help you out. I am also aware of their terms and conditions, but the fact is, no contract can override the law, plain and simple. Under EU law, I certainly have a case! Not sure about the US mind.

     

    Pretty much no case in the U.S., at least on an individual level.  The laws just don't support it.  I've yet to see a successful claim against Apple on this issue, for a device that was out of warranty.  But I have seen failed claims, where the consumer was told that Apple has abided by the terms of the warranty in full.

  • tomski84 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    Pretty much no case in the U.S., at least on an individual level.  The laws just don't support it.  I've yet to see a successful claim against Apple on this issue, for a device that was out of warranty.  But I have seen failed claims, where the consumer was told that Apple has abided by the terms of the warranty in full.

    That really *****. I can understand the appeal of Apple Care in the US then. Here, I tend to rely on our existing laws to protect me when goods are faulty. The crux of it though is that you have to prove it was faulty at the time of purchase, which is why I am hoping it is an inherent hardware issue, that way I will have a better case with my network provider if this continues beyond Apple's warranty period. But as I said, I have faith Apple will resolve the issue in time, I just hope it's sooner rather than later!

  • Trent Baur Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    Trent Baur wrote:


    I disagree. If it's hardware, how could forcing the phone to overheat (via a hair dryer) reset the chip?

     

    If it's hardware, how come I've yet to hear of a single instance of the greyed out wifi on an iOS6 phone? (If you have one, please provide a link.)

     

    Software exists between the OS and the hardware. This interface between the OS and hardware is what determines the chip to be defective and therefore "disables" it via greying out the wifi option. I believe this is where the bug is and I believe overheating the chip results in a logical code path where the bug is avoided and the chip is viewed as functional, as it always was.

     

    How does a hair dryer affect software?  It doesn't.  The code isn't being re-written by a hairdryer.

    The problem is caused by heat, causing a PHYSICAL conneciton to break (i.e., a solder point).  The problem is sometimes solved by heat as well, causing the physical connection (i.e., the solder point) to reconnect.

     

     

     

    I'm no soldering expert, I'm just a guy with common sense and a google search. But I see that hair dryers are restricted from being hotter than 140 degrees F which is the temperature where skin can burn.

     

    I found a link saying fifty-fifty solder" melts between 361 and 420 degrees F. Regardless of whether that is what's in the iPhone, it's such a WIDE disparity, it seems highly unlikely that anything inside an iPhone is melting into a functional state from the heat of a hair dryer. The physics just don't add up.

     

    pwrchord stated it perfectly: "The overheat/reset obviously has that code starting over at line zero until it hits its head on whatever is causing it to hang (and again, obviously in iOS7)."

     

    As to whether the bug exists in iOS6, you're right, there are examples of iOS6. So perhaps the bug was introduced in iOS6. But the bug could have been made more likely to occur in iOS7 given the vast overhaul they made to OS.

     

    Anyone who writes code and understands how corner case bugs work will understand this to be true.

     

    Anyone who doesn't write code can continue arguing about hardware, consumer laws and Sith Lords.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    tomski84 wrote:

     

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    Pretty much no case in the U.S., at least on an individual level.  The laws just don't support it.  I've yet to see a successful claim against Apple on this issue, for a device that was out of warranty.  But I have seen failed claims, where the consumer was told that Apple has abided by the terms of the warranty in full.

    That really *****. I can understand the appeal of Apple Care in the US then. Here, I tend to rely on our existing laws to protect me when goods are faulty. The crux of it though is that you have to prove it was faulty at the time of purchase, which is why I am hoping it is an inherent hardware issue, that way I will have a better case with my network provider if this continues beyond Apple's warranty period. But as I said, I have faith Apple will resolve the issue in time, I just hope it's sooner rather than later!

     

    I agree, the limitations are inconvenient.  That's why I'm a proponent of changing the consumer protection laws.  However, Apple has a much better record in that area than most U.S. companies.  But people tend to forget that when they are affected by a defect.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    Trent Baur wrote:

     

    *snip*

     

    Twenty years as an electronics & software tech in the military.  Additional years in the civilian field.  So, I think I'll stay in this discussion.

     

    There's a difference between 'melting' and 'softening'.  And it only takes ONE connection to be loose to cause an intermittent problem.

     

    If was an overtemp issue relating to software, then the overtemp warning would display, and many other functions of the iPhone would be inhibited, not just wi-fi.  The same part of the code that you refer to controls more than just the wi-fi chip.  The fact that the wi-fi is the sole symptom is what makes the difference.

     

    If it was the software, then more than just the wi-fi would go bad, because that's how the software is written.

     

    It was a good thought, though.  But since that part of the code affects more than wi-fi alone, it's a faulty assumption.

     

    In the end... do you really care whether it's software or hardware?  Or do you just want your device to work?

  • NewsBuddy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    "Anyone who doesn't write code can continue arguing about hardware, consumer laws and Sith Lords." Well said Trent. Lately I encountered another iOS 7 bug, with iPad 2 which the Apple themselves agreed. The issue is battery would drain like crazy, 100% to 10% in 1 hour of active usage. What they found is crashed iOS apps drain the battery and the iOS 7 had no control on cleaning up that crashed App. Now I am told not to restore from backup! What a solution.... Just get my apps again and use it. My kids does not know yet, that their game data can't be put back yet. I am bringing this up to educate our iOS 7 advocate. I would like hear from him what his solution would be to convince my Kids.

     

    Also Apple confirmed ( at the store ) that they are working on update 7.1 which will not be out until next year. So the lesson here is don't update your iOS devices to any major releases. Wait for an incremental. This is same as with Microsoft always wait for SP1. The latest in that line is Windows 8.1.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    NewsBuddy wrote:

     

    "Anyone who doesn't write code can continue arguing about hardware, consumer laws and Sith Lords." Well said Trent. Lately I encountered another iOS 7 bug, with iPad 2 which the Apple themselves agreed. The issue is battery would drain like crazy, 100% to 10% in 1 hour of active usage. What they found is crashed iOS apps drain the battery and the iOS 7 had no control on cleaning up that crashed App. Now I am told not to restore from backup! What a solution.... Just get my apps again and use it. My kids does not know yet, that their game data can't be put back yet. I am bringing this up to educate our iOS 7 advocate. I would like hear from him what his solution would be to convince my Kids.

     

    Also Apple confirmed ( at the store ) that they are working on update 7.1 which will not be out until next year. So the lesson here is don't update your iOS devices to any major releases. Wait for an incremental. This is same as with Microsoft always wait for SP1. The latest in that line is Windows 8.1.

     

    Your battery problem is a separate issue from the one discussed in this thread.

     

    No one at any Apple Store knows the specific release date of 7.1.  It's a logical assumption based on past iOS releases, however.

     

    I agree that waiting for any new technology (whether hardware or software) to have time in the field is the preferred option for the average user.  No beta test for any product has ever prevented all bugs from getting into the final release.

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