Previous 1 14 15 16 17 18 Next 581 Replies Latest reply: Oct 4, 2014 3:34 PM by jacobfreakingharris Go to original post Branched to a new discussion.
  • Trent Baur Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

     

    If was an overtemp issue relating to software, then the overtemp warning would display, and many other functions of the iPhone would be inhibited, not just wi-fi.  The same part of the code that you refer to controls more than just the wi-fi chip.  The fact that the wi-fi is the sole symptom is what makes the difference.

     

    If it was the software, then more than just the wi-fi would go bad, because that's how the software is written.

     

    This is just getting silly. It's clear that you've never debugged a line of code in your life.

     

    There is a reason they are called "bugs." They are small, they may only manifest themselves in special corner cases where X, Y and Z curcumstances line up. And they can affect a very specific item of functionality while leaving the rest of the software perfectly intact.

     

    I don't have a hardware vs software dog in this fight. I just care about logic and common sense. Common sense tells me this is a firmware bug.

     

    It's not logical that an upgrade to iOS7 is burning out hundreds/thousands of wifi chips across the world.

     

    It's not logical that overheating an iPhone magically restores a defective piece of hardware. Especially if the argument for the iOS7 cause is that "the upgrade was so demanding and generated so much heat, it broke the wifi chip." So applying more heat fixes it? Fantasy land.

     

    The hair dryer trick doesn't have to work 100% of the time to support the idea of causing a reset and getting around a firmware bug. But its success rate seems to be very high.

     

    If I DO have an ax to grind, it's that Apple did, IN FACT, force/trick its users to install iOS7. The download to one's phone was AUTOMATIC. This is a FACT. Yes, one could choose to not install the upgrade and let the 3G of files sit on their phone. But it does seem that Apple structured the update in a way that tricked many people (my wife included) to install upgrade when they didn't want to.

     

    If you ask me, this is the cause of a lot of the anger directed at Apple. And this anger is deserved.

  • Trent Baur Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    NewsBuddy wrote:

     

     

    Also Apple confirmed ( at the store ) that they are working on update 7.1 which will not be out until next year. So the lesson here is don't update your iOS devices to any major releases. Wait for an incremental. This is same as with Microsoft always wait for SP1. The latest in that line is Windows 8.1.

     

    Except Apple took this choice away from consumers. iOS7 was forced on people.

  • Trent Baur Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    Your battery problem is a separate issue from the one discussed in this thread.

     

     

    True, but it is a perfect example of how a software bug can manifest itself in how the hardware operates. The defect is not the battery, it is the OS.

  • tomski84 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Trent Baur wrote:

     

    I don't have a hardware vs software dog in this fight. I just care about logic and common sense. Common sense tells me this is a firmware bug.

    I pray that you are right!

     

    The woman on the phone at Apple support confirmed to me that it is a firmware bug and then made out that resetting my phone would update the firmware. I dismissed her claim about firmware afterwards because it didn't work. Maybe she lied to me because she wanted to get home early. I really hope it is a firmware bug, I'm guessing that would be easy to iron out.

  • JoeBlow2444 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    It's not logical that an upgrade to iOS7 is burning out hundreds/thousands of wifi chips across the world.

    No one said that "wifi chips" were being "burned out".  But it has been established that there is a hardware fault in some devices that seems to only show itself during heavy use- such as downloading an iOS update.  This has been seen before, even in iOS 6), and heavy wifi use seems to cause it.  It's just that with iOS 7, a LOT of people were doing it all at once, so naturally, a proportionally highh number of cases would happen.

     

    It's not logical that overheating an iPhone magically restores a defective piece of hardware. Especially if the argument for the iOS7 cause is that "the upgrade was so demanding and generated so much heat, it broke the wifi chip." So applying more heat fixes it? Fantasy land.

    Heat causes components to expand (and contract when later cooled). There is nothing magical about the fact that this may cause the ends of broken connections to be pressed together temporarily.  Or the expansion may cause a chip to be pressed into its socket, making it work again- at least until further heat/cool cycles cause it to come unseated again.

     

    Less 'fantasy', more 'mechanical engineering'.

  • Trent Baur Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    JoeBlow2444 wrote:

     

    No one said that "wifi chips" were being "burned out".  But it has been established that there is a hardware fault in some devices that seems to only show itself during heavy use- such as downloading an iOS update.  This has been seen before, even in iOS 6), and heavy wifi use seems to cause it.  It's just that with iOS 7, a LOT of people were doing it all at once, so naturally, a proportionally highh number of cases would happen.

     

     

    What is the difference between a "hardware fault...during heavy use" and "burned out"?

     

    Heat causes components to expand (and contract when later cooled). There is nothing magical about the fact that this may cause the ends of broken connections to be pressed together temporarily.  Or the expansion may cause a chip to be pressed into its socket, making it work again- at least until further heat/cool cycles cause it to come unseated again.

     

    That's possible but I really have trouble believing that the hair dryer approach has had such a high percentage of success if that is what's occurring. It's seems like it's been an 80/20 split of success vs fail. Maybe people aren't posting when it fails but I think it would be the other way around.

     

    The idea that we are resetting broken connections with the relatively low heat of a hair dryer is the same as fixing a computer by kicking it. Sure, it could theoretically work, but it just seems a little far fetched.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    Trent Baur wrote:

     

    This is just getting silly. It's clear that you've never debugged a line of code in your life.

     

    Completely wrong.  I've been working with software for a very long time, including debugging code.

     

    There is a reason they are called "bugs." They are small, they may only manifest themselves in special corner cases where X, Y and Z curcumstances line up. And they can affect a very specific item of functionality while leaving the rest of the software perfectly intact.

     

    Which is why one of the steps listed in the article is to update the software, or even to restore the device back to factory settings.  That process reinstalls the iOS.  That's why you can't restore an iPhone without it getting an iOS update, if available.  If the iPhone has been restored as new, and problem persists, then it's not software-related in that case.

     

     

    I don't have a hardware vs software dog in this fight. I just care about logic and common sense. Common sense tells me this is a firmware bug.

    Logic tells me that, if an iPhone has been restored as new, and the problem persists, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that it is software related.

     

     

    It's not logical that an upgrade to iOS7 is burning out hundreds/thousands of wifi chips across the world.

     

    Sounds like you agree that it isn't the software.  Not sure what the argument is, then.

     

    It's not logical that overheating an iPhone magically restores a defective piece of hardware. Especially if the argument for the iOS7 cause is that "the upgrade was so demanding and generated so much heat, it broke the wifi chip." So applying more heat fixes it? Fantasy land.

     

    The hair dryer trick doesn't have to work 100% of the time to support the idea of causing a reset and getting around a firmware bug. But its success rate seems to be very high.

     

    JoeBlow2444 already addressed that part very well. I'll leave it at that, for now.

     

     

    If I DO have an ax to grind, it's that Apple did, IN FACT, force/trick its users to install iOS7. The download to one's phone was AUTOMATIC. This is a FACT. Yes, one could choose to not install the upgrade and let the 3G of files sit on their phone. But it does seem that Apple structured the update in a way that tricked many people (my wife included) to install upgrade when they didn't want to.

     

    If you ask me, this is the cause of a lot of the anger directed at Apple. And this anger is deserved.

     

    No, the download is not automatic.  You have tell your iOS device to download and install the software.  It doesn't 'just happen'.  You have to actually go into Settings > General > Software Update.  If the software got 'accidentally' downloaded, then it is user error/ignorance.

     

    Virtually EVERYTHING about iOS 7.0 was made publicly available on the release date.  Apple Retail Stores had demo models available.  Most other retail stores also had it available.  Apple didn't 'force' anything on anyone.

  • JoeBlow2444 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    What is the difference between a "hardware fault...during heavy use" and "burned out"?

    I'll grant you that failing through overheating could be colloquially refered to as 'burning out'.  But I haven't seen any evidence as to which part has failed.

     

    That's possible but I really have trouble believing that the hair dryer approach has had such a high percentage of success if that is what's occurring. It's seems like it's been an 80/20 split of success vs fail.

    80% is not a particularly high sucess rate.  And it's only a temporary fix.

     

    The idea that we are resetting broken connections with the relatively low heat of a hair dryer is the same as fixing a computer by kicking it.

    If I recall correctly, one of the first Apple computers had an issue where thermal expansion would eventually cause cards to unseat themselves. The solution? Pick it up about 6 inches and drop it, causing the cards to re-seat themselves. 

     

    Sure, it could theoretically work, but it just seems a little far fetched.

    It Does work, so....

  • Roy The Manc Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    It worked for me..I'm a games console engineer and I'm more than familiar with the concept of having to reflow components/hardware in order to get them to work again..Lead free solder's melting point is 220 degrees, so a hairdryer will not ramp to that temp..It's defo a software issue as opposed to hardware..All I can say is a full factory restore didn't cure it and all the other ways of rebooting inc DFU mode, but there's something to be said for when the iphone gets the " Warning too hot screen " that makes the software and hardware communicate with each other again..ios 7 didn't take mine out it was the next update..The one that was supposed to close the expoloit and stop iphone from being vulnerable to thieves..This update was complulsary seeing as Apple left the phone in a vulnerable state...

  • pwrchord Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I'd bet a month of Sunday's that it has nothing to do with flowing a solder connection...it's so obvious this is not a hardware issue that arguing further seems moot.

     

    As to firmware - it may or may not be able to be updated.  Depends on architecture, application complexity - and intent of original designer.  That said, I hope your info is correct, that it is indeed a bug in the firmware code and that it can be rev'ed forward to a fix.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 Level 5 (7,310 points)

    pwrchord wrote:

     

    I'd bet a month of Sunday's that it has nothing to do with flowing a solder connection...it's so obvious this is not a hardware issue that arguing further seems moot.

     

    As to firmware - it may or may not be able to be updated.  Depends on architecture, application complexity - and intent of original designer.  That said, I hope your info is correct, that it is indeed a bug in the firmware code and that it can be rev'ed forward to a fix.

     

    If it's not a hardware issue, then why does replacing the hardware 'fix' the problem?

    Two identical phones can actually have slight physical differences, due to manufacturing issues.

    Two identical software installs might have differences, but that would be resolved by a restore/reinstall of the software.

     

    When a restore/reinstall doesn't fix the issue, then it's hardware-related.  This is basic troubleshooting logic.

     

    If it was a firmware bug, then you're under the impression that Apple has not addressed that 'bug' for over a year?  The wi-fi greyed out issue has been around for a lot longer than iOS 7.

  • Trent Baur Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

     

    When a restore/reinstall doesn't fix the issue, then it's hardware-related.  This is basic troubleshooting logic.

     

     

    Apple does not allow you to reinstall iOS6.

     

    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/167450-downgrading-from-ios-7-to-ios-6-why- apple-wont-let-you

     

     

    Even tech savvy people have been blocked:

     

    http://9to5mac.com/2013/09/19/buyers-remorse-heres-how-to-go-back-to-ios-6-while -you-still-can/

     

     

    When you talk about people restoring/reinstalling their software, all they are doing is putting on a fresh version of iOS7. They are not allowed to revert to "Factory Original Software", i.e. - Put the phone back to the state it was in the box, i.e. - iOS5 I believe. Believe me, if people could just restore their phone to a pre-iOS7 version, they would in droves.

     

    If there is a bug inherent in iOS7, reinstalling doesn't change anything.

     

    And before you squawk about greyed out wifi in iOS6, sure, maybe the bug was introduced in iOS6.1.3 or whatever, migrated into iOS7 and maybe some other code change occurred that makes it a more commonly occurring corner case than in iOS6.

  • Trent Baur Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    JoeBlow2444 wrote:

     

     

    80% is not a particularly high sucess rate.  And it's only a temporary fix.

     

     

    The idea that we are resetting broken connections with the relatively low heat of a hair dryer is the same as fixing a computer by kicking it.

     

    If I recall correctly, one of the first Apple computers had an issue where thermal expansion would eventually cause cards to unseat themselves. The solution? Pick it up about 6 inches and drop it, causing the cards to re-seat themselves. 

     

     

    Sure, it could theoretically work, but it just seems a little far fetched.

     

    It Does work, so....

     

    Ok now, this is just trolling.

  • pwrchord Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    OK, one more attempt -

     

    Yes - replacing the 'hardware' with other 'hardware' that does not contain the affected Wifi chips (which as we all know, contains firmware - an internal instruction sets that run when trigger by the OS) is a 'fix'.  Two 'identical' phones (on the outside) can have different/disparate (dot rev) instruction sets of firmware running on thier respective Wifi chips.  They may runfine forever - BUT - they may not.  Based on what the bug is, the same trigger than causes one to freeze has no effect on the other.

     

    I would guess that THIS particular issue has not been around for a year.  iOS6 might have triggered the same result on the older Wifi units (that may or may not have run the same firmware) through a different trigger (but resulted in the same instruction).  There's no way for us to know that, but I don't believe in coincidence so maybe they have known.... 

     

    One thing for sure, many/most code will reset itself once started from zer0 (think ctrl-alt-del).  The hair dryer thing has nothing to do with reestablishing physical solder connections.  That's frankly ludicrous and dismissed out of hand.  The heat just causes the faulty wifi chip, complete with it's onboard instruction sets, to reset to 0 per a resident instruction it has for when the phone is in the overheat mode.  

     

    And per my earlier post - not all firmware can be 'flashed' or updated - Apple MIGHT have wanted to address it but couldn't can't without changing the dot rev of the firmware on the chipset.

     

    Software runs until it has a reason not to run, which in this case, is something that might have been reused from iOS6 into iOS7 - I simply don't know.  But I do know this: it's a software/firmware bug that is hanging these Wifi functions.

     

    Peace -

  • Roy The Manc Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Are you dissing my Hairdryer Pwrchord ?

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