clipping sound on new iMac when Logix X is running

I just saw that Roland posted updated drivers on their website that are said to be "compatible with Mavericks". The thing is, they already posted Mavericks compatible drivers, just a day after 10.9 was released. Maybe this is some kind of development, maybe not. No way for me to check since I no longer have my new iMac.

poinggo,

If you don't have this issue just using iTunes and the built in Audio, then your issue is not the same as the one being discussed... and would probably be more likely, an AI driver issue...

This has been a long and painful journey. I fianlly have answers and a solution to the incompatibility between the fusion drive and audio interfaces. After several hours on the phone with top level Apple support persons (it took hours because they were constantly putting me on hold so they could talk to the engineer dept.) They stated that the problem is the fusion drive software constantly addressing the SSD drive and the magnetic drive. This causes the noises, stuttering and drop out of the audio when using any audio interface.

The solution they advised was to take my computer(27" i7 1TB fusion) to the authorised Apple store that I puchased it through and have the fusion drive software uninstalled. They assured me this would not void any warranties. I did as they advised and now everything works perfectly EXCEPT I do not have what I paid for.

In effect what I have now is a very small SSD (120GHz) and a larger (1TB) magnetic drive. This is somewhat like having a solid state drive internal for OS and apps and a 1TB external scratch drive for storage, all housed internaly in the iMac.For those that don't know, a fusion drive is just a small solid state drive and a larger magnetic drive linked together with fusion software that decides what to put where depending on your usage. The issue at present is that the SSD is so small that I have to be careful that it doesn't fill up. Case in point, the additional content that Logic downloads by default installs on the same drive the application resides on. This will leave me with no room for adding any more apps to that drive. One solution is to put Logic on the 1TB magnetic drive but that would negate the speed increase of using the SSD. Theother would be to manually move the addirional content to the magnetic drive, reindexing and then deleting the content from the SSD. I spoke to Apple about this and they said it was safe to move the loops but to leave the sampler intruments , reverbs etc with Logic. Basicaly only move the loops in Library/ audio/ apple/ apple loops.

This MUST be a temporary solution, I paid extra for a fusion drive that does not work. I will wait a while for an update that fixes this and then reinstall the FD software OR I will insist on being reimbursed for the extra I paid OR I will return the computer and reorder one with a standard magnetic drive and buy a thunderbolt external.

In any case I am very disapointed with Apple and how they have handled this. It has caused pain and suffering, not to mention down time for all of the audio recording people that ordered a new Mac with a fusion drive.

Thanks for clearing that up!!

I have actually considered spliting the fusion drive via terminal to see if that would fix the issue, but now it seems to be the solution (for now).

Regarding the lack of storage on your ssd, you can move your Home folder to the 1TB disk, and then only use the ssd for applications. On my old mac with a 128gb ssd and a 2tb magnetic drive I had it this way and I didn't fill it up.

The Art Of Sound wrote:

1) All 2013 iMacs with a Fusion Drive (FD) demonstrate this issue even just using the built in Audio and iTunes

I'm beginning to wonder if my sound issue is a different problem? I do get (alot) clicks and pops when using iTunes, but only if I use it together with Cubase or any other sound application, and when the buffer size is set to a low value. If I raise the buffer size above 1056 samples, the issue goes away.

I have only experienced distortion 5-6 times when opening a new project in Pro Tools, but only once in iTunes...

Do you guy experience clicks and pops or distortion when using iTunes, with no other sound application open?

I'm a bit confused..

It looks like there are two different issues discussed here, because for me too, there is no problem with just iTunes and the built-in speakers (just to be sure, 'built-in audio' means, the built in speakers without audio interface right (english is not my mothertongue) ? )

But if the problem is not the iMac in that case, how come I've had problems with two different interfaces, one USB and one Firewire ?

One thing that I didn't mention, I noticed a few pops when working in Logic Pro X with the built-in audio, BUT very subtle ones and seldom. Nothing anoying, but I was wondering if it was actually normal or not. I thought it was simply the cpu and believed there was nothing to worry about, especially since i don't have that in iTunes.

Clambake wrote:

In any case I am very disapointed with Apple and how they have handled this. It has caused pain and suffering, not to mention down time for all of the audio recording people that ordered a new Mac with a fusion drive.

It's odd that this would get by development and testing. The FD is Apple's baby you would think it would be vetted before releasing. if this were happening on iPhones or the iPad it would be fixed by now. Perhaps a software update can resolve the matter. AOS was going to have some more info later today or tomorrow.

Hi calle100,

I already moved my home folder to my "storage" drive. The SSD right now only holds applications and Logic additional content. There is 34GHz of free space left (out of 120 total) so I will be moving the Apple Loops part of the content (4Ghz) mostly to get in the habit of keeping that drive as clean and uncluttered as possible. Have been running my Personus AudioBox 22vsl for two days now and there are no problems with or without Logic running. My next step is to download and install the personus software and drivers to see if that causes a problem, it did before so I uninstalled all drivers and software connected to that AI.

Sebastienka

The problem IS the Mac fusion drive software, not the interfaces. it makes no difference whether they are USB or Firewire, at least that is what Apple told me. If you want to use an AI with these fusion drives you either have to wait for a fix or have the FD software uninstalled.

PancenterPancenter

PancenterYou make a good point. All I can think of is that they didn't run the testing long enough. In my case the problems didn't surface until the AI had been plugged in for 30 to 120 minutes so it's possible that they gave the Ok before the problem had a chance to manifest. You are also right that if we made up a larger part of their revenue stream and had more coverage in the media, this problem would of been handled much differently and heads would roll.

Hi everyone. I just wanted to chime in here, and let you know what is happening with my recently (just got it today!) arrived late 2013 iMac. I am happy to say that I have not experienced any *big* problems so far, and have tested iTunes (running it over 2 hours), some games, and Logic 9, and the audio seems to be working very smoothly. No clicks or pops that I could hear. So far, pretty smooth sailing. Sounds just fine.

I say 'pretty smooth' because I've noticed a slight problem, not sure how big of a problem it is or if it's just a hiccup unrelated to the problems you guys seem to be facing. I noticed my sound didn't work a couple of times. In Logic, I'd press play and get no sound. Same thing in iTunes. Same thing in Civilization 4. But as of *right now* the audio is playing, and there isn't a problem at all... it sounds absolutely fine. The dropping out of audio I am not *too* concerned at the moment, as it's never happened midway through anything... only when starting a new program. I'm guessing the compatibility between the new iMacs and my Apogee Duet 2 isn't 100% there yet... and Apogee did contact me to let me know that they are working on making it fully compatible. That said, it's not a huge problem as of yet... so I don't have too much to complain about, unless the audio dropouts happen more frequently. Anyways, to fix the audio dropout (which has happened three times today) I just restart my computer and it seems fine again. I'll keep you posted on what happens.

And to clear some things up, I think it would be good if you knew what my new iMac setup is like. Here are my specs below:

- 3.5Ghz iMac with 16BG RAM, 3TB 72000rpm internal drive (which seems much faster than my old 72000, I should add... installing Logic was amazingly faster than before... I think...).

- I'm running OSX Mountain Lion with the latest update. *NOT* going to install Mavericks for a year until I know everything is compatible with it (audio people should never install the latest & greatest, it's a rule of thumb)

- Using an Apogee Duet 2 (USB)

- No pops, clicks, or distortion of any kind

- 3 audio drop outs so far (which results in no audio at all until a computer restart)

I am speculating that Apogee needs to update their firmware, but that's just me speculating! Anyways, to those who have bought the Fusion Drive, I really hope this gets cured for you. I think the problems we are all facing are a bit more varied and complex than we think. For example, I don't think my audio dropouts are at all related to the distortion you folks are experiencing. But again, just speculation!

I'll update you all with anything I find, or if I hear anything from Apple or Apogee about this. We're in this together! 🙂

I want to reply to Clambake here. Yes, *one* problem seems to be the fusion drives. But there are other, unrelated problems I think.

Sebastienka, you are also correct that some audio interfaces are having problems. My Duet 2 USB was created & designed *only* for the current Apple computers, so it makes sense that it won't work with a new one.

These two problems seem to be unrelated, but they *are* indeed two separate problems with different solutions.

One one hand, you've got fusion drive software messing around with the audio (we think).

On the other hand, you've got new computers which these audio interfaces were not designed for. Expect firmware updates from your manufacturers. If they claim they do not need to update their firmware, tell them that they do. Apogee is doing it, and hopefully this will cure my current *small* problem of audio dropouts... I think it's likely everything will get sorted out.

But I should put a disclaimer here: Yeah, it's all just speculation. I'm just going on what I've read, and what I've gotten from Apogee.

Cheers.

Unfortunately, I was dropped from the threeway call after about 5 minutes and my client didn't realize that had happened untiul almost the end of the call.. so what i am relating here comes by means of my client and not something I heard directly from the call with Engineering tonight.....

Again, there are two different issues going on which all have the same sort of result though to differing degrees.... and a third issue described below.

1) The 2013 iMac with Fusion Drive that under certain circumstances causes "noise" be it via the onboard Audio or an Audio Interface. I am not clear as to what those 'certain circumstances' are but it seems a large percentage of 2013 iMac with FD owners hear the noise to different dregees through the onboard Audio and almost everyone hears the "noise" through an ext AI

2) Mavericks and Audio Interface driver issues...that again cause similar sounding "noise" to that heard in #1

3) 2013 iMacs with Fusion Drives where an Audio Interface has an issue where the sound cuts off abruptly after a period of time... and only a restart of the iMac brings back sound via an Audio Interface.

In regards to issue #1, the engineering team is aware of this issue and as far as they can understand it at this time, the problem is caused by the software, used to control the Fusion Drive, which gives a higher priority to the data streaming from the FD that any other data that is on the same bus... resulting in the 'noise' issue. This they hope to fix by a tweak or two to the FD software....

In regards to issue #2, The engineering team believe the problems are being caused by the AI drivers not being fully compliant with the various new bits of hardware in the recent Macs along with some small changes made in Mavericks and so the Devs of the affected AIs will need to release new drivers/firmware updates to fix this particular issue. As always, not all AIs are affected by this problem.

In regards to issue #3, This is still under investigation. It initially appeared to be an AI driver issue but now the Engineering team believes it may be also being caused by a late change made to Maverick and so they are running some tests to help nail this issue down. It is a tricky one to reproduce however and so far they haven't reliably managed to do so. It doesn't seem to affect any other Mac besides the 2013 iMac with FD installed so that tends to lead them to think it may be related to issue #1 in some way though the end result is very different and affects a much smaller number of owners of these new iMacs.

Important Note: Some people may have a combination of both #1 and #2.... and maybe even #3 as well.. just to confuse matters even more! So curing one of them may leave them with one of the other issues still present

'Noise" in the above cases is often described as crackling, pops or other short bursts of digital noise...

The problem in all three cases is not soley applicable to Logic Pro...and nor is Logic Pro's code any part of the cause of the issue.

Additional Note #1: There was a comment made about the problems with Video in Logic Pro.. stuttering and this may be related to the late changes made to certain routines in Mavericks.. mentioned under issue #3.

Additional Note #2: In the last Dev release of Mavericks prior to the first of the two GMs... Issue #1 was never reported to the Engineering team by any user. Issue #2 was reported by several users.. and certain Devs of the affected AIs, were made aware of the issues... Issue #3 was not reported as far as the Engineering team were aware..

That's all I have got... and I believe much of it supports Clambake's report earlier....

Finally, I should add that the Engineering team recommended the same action to my client as they did to Clambake ("Turning off' the Fusion Drive stuff) but made it clear to my client this was only a temporary workaround and a full fix for Issue #1 and #3 should be forthcoming... which will then allow Users to go back to using their Fusion Drive in the manner it was designed to be used.

Thanks so much AOS, a very complete report.

That all sounds on par with what engineering reported to me AOS. To take issue #2 out of play I deleted the drivers with both AIs that I tried. It vastly cleaned up the sound and was nice and clean for anywhere from 30 to 120 minutes. I don't know why the time varied, maybe the amount of times the FD software addresses the drive. I don't know of any Ai that requires a driver for Mac OS but maybe there are some that do, I only tried the Focusrite and the Presonus.

Clambake,

I am not sure what you meant by the following;

To take issue #2 out of play I deleted the drivers with both AIs that I tried. It vastly cleaned up the sound and was nice and clean for anywhere from 30 to 120 minutes

I am not sure how you managed to use your AI if you deleted the drivers when it required one to work in the first place? How did you get Audio to and from your AI if it used drivers to do so initially? What did you select as a device in Logic Pro for example?

I don't know of any Ai that requires a driver for Mac OS but maybe there are some that do, I only tried the Focusrite and the Presonus.

A great number of AIs require a driver as far as i am aware. There are some USB- Midi interfaces that are class compliant and do not require a driver as such and there are a few USB2 Audio Interfaces (and now Thunderbolt Driverless Audio Interfaces coming on to the market) that dont need them.. but for the most part AIs almost always do use a driver to handle sound via CoreAudio. and in fact it has been a sad fact that the driverless interfaces have had more problems when things change within OS X because without a driver,(or firmware update) they cannot correct the way the interface "interfaces' with OS X...

The Mackie Onyx 'Saga' is a good example of how a company had to release a new updated version of the hardware that provided for driver and firmware updates to fix a problem.. leaving those with the older version of the hardware unable to update to Mountain Lion (and now Mavericks) because the first version of the Onyx mixer range isn't compatible with those OS versions.. and cannot be updated via drivers and/or firmware to make it compatible... leaving quite a few Onyx owners extremely frustrated and annoyed.

The info from Mackie.. relating to this, can be found in detail here..

http://www.mackie.com/products/onyxiseries/drivers/

To respond to your #3, I don't have a fusion drive and am experiencing this problem. But I am on Mountain Lion (latest) with an Apogee Duet 2. I've probably had to unplug, then replug, my Apogee Duet in about 15-20 times today already. The problem seems to happen only when I start up a new program, or go into the sound preferences on my mac. My Apogee Duet probably just needs a firmware update... I hope.