clipping sound on new iMac when Logix X is running

Just occurred to me, you said the USB2/USB3 problem is with new Macs. Is that all new Macs, or just iMacs with FDs? Reason I ask is that my USB headsets/mics all work perfectly fine with my Macbook Air running Mavericks, and they worked fine with my Mac Pro with ML.

So is it the combination of FD + Mavericks that is the problem? Or is it the 2013 iMac FD specifically, regardless of OS? (I'm speaking of the USB2/USB3 issue here).

Okay, but none of my devices have drivers. They're plug and play with Apple. So are you saying they'll have to make entirely new hardware?

That doesn't make sense given that my devices all work fine with my 2013 Macbook Air running Mavericks.

Switters,

That's the problem.. (and yes, it is that confusing!)

The Devs designed their 'plug and play' devices in such a way using routines in earlier OS X and Win versions.. in a manner tyey were not supposed to be used.. so that now they don't work correctly with some USB3 ports.. and OS versions because they didn't follow the USB2 Spec guidelines in the first place... They worked ok with USB2 and earlier OS versions.. but now they don't work correctly with some/most USB3 ports and/or later OS versions. If possible they can fix the problem via firmware updates in some cases and in others they can write a driver that will work with their devices even though they didn't need a driver initially... but in others, there is nothing they can do...

The problem affects all computers with USB3 ports and certain OS X or Windows versions where the built in OS routines were changed to reflect correct support for USB3...

As an example of how bizarre this whole thing can get..., Mackie released a series of USB2 devices that failed to work when plugged into a USB3 port and at the same time.. also failed to work correctly with later versions of Lion, Mountain Lion and later Mavericks even when plugged into a USB2 port...because they didn't follow the guidelines for USB2 devices to the letter but instead used a few 'tricks' to save some money on components.. and/or get better performance etc...

Because of this Mackie had to release an updated version of their devices ( Involving physical changes to their hardware design) leaving customers who bought the original version.. completely stuck with non working USB2 devices... telling them they either need to not upgrade to a newer OS X version (or Windows version) or they will need to buy the new version of their hardware!

This link will give an idea of what i am talking about...

http://www.mackie.com/products/onyxiseries/drivers/

There are some cheap USB2 midi interfaces (the cable only type) that will never work correctly with ML or Mav and won't work correctly when plugged into a USB3 port for the same reasons.. and i gather some USB2 mics and other USB2 devices... have exactly the same issues.

Nothing to do with Apple... Its all down to how the devices were designed in the first place.. and if they took advantage of certain routines in earlier OS (win and OS X) versions (in non recommended or improper ways) to make their devices work.. Now those routines have changed.. they no longer work properly... and it can get worse when they are used with certain USB3 ports...depending on what power loads are placed on those ports.. as it seems almost all the issues revolve around improper power consumption by these devices...

Wow, that's really crazy. Thanks again for laying it out so clearly.

But in my case, all 3 of my USB devices work flawlessly with my 2013 MBA running Mavericks. So wouldn't logic dictate that the issue for me is the FD in the iMac, or perhaps the combination of FC + Mavericks in the iMac?

Thus the solution is either 1) boot from external drive, 2) partition FD, 3) exchange for SSD only iMac, 4) downgrade to ML (possibly; unclear whether this will work).

It will be the FD that is causing the issue with your 2013 iMac... and only a fix from Apple can cure that.... so yes, those 4 possible solutions are your current ones to choose from.... and it seems, from feedback from those with this issue.. that options #1 (The easiest) or #2 (Needs a bit more technical know how) are the 'best' choices until such time as Apple fix the problem... unless you wish to/can change your iMac for a different model without an FD

Okay, I think I've finally got it. Thank you!

Unfortunately, options 1 & 2 aren't great for me. I do a lot of photography work and both of those will slow things down considerably—unless I buy an expensive TB enclosure with a fast SSD for booting. But then I'd still have to partition my FD so that I can store my photos on the internal HDD, right? Otherwise I imagine I'd run into the same issues since the FD would be accessed.

I think I'm going to try option 4 first, since it's the least objectionable. I'll clone my current FD with Mavericks so I can easily revert back to it if downgrading to ML doesn't work.

Makes sense to me.... but please note.. that is the least likely one to work..

Worth a try though under the circumstances...

Good luck!

AoS...

Thanks for your cogent layout of the options. Pretty depressing stuff, yeah, but at least there are options other than throwing my iMac through the window of an Apple store.

Do you think the option of a USB-to-Tbolt hub (however irritating the expense of it) is worth trying as a workaround, or do you think the FD problem will not respond to that either?

The biggest fear I have, in any case, is that the root cause of some of the USB issues are hardware and not fixable, making this shiny new iMac the "infamous one mac" that can't do music. That thought makes my blood boil a bit. I've never been so dissatisfied with an Apple product.

Thanks....N

Do you think the option of a USB-to-Tbolt hub (however irritating the expense of it) is worth trying as a workaround, or do you think the FD problem will not respond to that either?

I've found that simply using a powered USB2 hub tends to work just as well... in many cases... without going to the expense of buying a TBolt hub.... It doesn't help in every case but in many, it does.

The USB2 issue... which is different to the FD issue... is not an issue with your Mac.... but with the USB Device itself... which is just as frustrating I know... but it's best to know who your 'enemy' is, rather than lay blame at the wrong feet..... As I said earlier.. the same USB devices that have issues with Macs.. also tend to have similar issues with PCs....

I will say that i have a 2013 iMac which does not have a FD fitted and the USB devices i have tried that had issues with an FD equipped iMac also had the same issues with my non FD iMac... They also failed to work correctly with my 2012 Mac Mini which has an FD and USB3 ports....and a Mac Mini with USB3 ports but no FD.... (All running under Mav)

I also have other USB devices that work perfectly with all of my Maverick Macs.... (A Motu Ultralite Mk3 Hybrid using it's USB2 connection to the Mac's USB3 port and the latest 10.9 drivers, for example) so, again, for me... that points the finger at it being the USB devices themselves rather than any particular Mac or the OS version problem.... otherwise none of them would work correctly.

The Art Of Sound wrote:

As an example of how bizarre this whole thing can get..., Mackie released a series of USB2 devices that failed to work when plugged into a USB3 port and at the same time.. also failed to work correctly with later versions of Lion, Mountain Lion and later Mavericks even when plugged into a USB2 port...because they didn't follow the guidelines for USB2 devices to the letter but instead used a few 'tricks' to save some money on components.. and/or get better performance etc...

To be fair to the quality manufacturers...most (if not all) "USB tricks" used were to improve performance because USB is such a dog when it comes to continuous streaming of data, and also because computer operating systems have reached new lows of efficiency. Since the operating system controls USB performance the operating system can interfere with USB performance depending on what's required of it at the moment.

And the other reason to give manufacturer's a break, if the loopholes weren't there in the first place, they never would've been able to use them.

In my case on an ssd drive usb powered hub did not solve the problem so that's an option I had to cross out .luckily I can use the hub down the road....

An addendum to my post above.

Even though USB is generally an inferior protocol for streaming audio, companies that know how to write quality drivers (MOTU and RME come to mind) can make the hardware work. Other companies that use the operating system drivers can have varied performance as the drivers can change each version of the operating system, including incremental upgrades.

Art Of Sound,

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying USB 2/3 compatibility issues have nothing to do with the new iMac other than the fact that it has USB 3.0 ports. I have the 27" SSD version with the apogee quartet which uses USB 2.0, which works fine just plugged in, but when the software is installed it freezes up every minute of running audio through it. Wouldn't apogee quartet (a 1200$ unit) qualify as a quality unit and since it was released just about a year ago with usb 2.0, it MUST have had usb 3.0 in mind!! so how would getting a hub solve the problem since for example the Belkin also uses USB 3.0 ports!

i do not have a FD iMac, have the SSD and according to you there is nothing wrong with the USB 3.0 ports, other than the fact that they are just that, USB 3.0 ports. I have a high quality modern audio device which performs really well without any software. I'm not getting this! Confused!!

Thanks!

Rasmusmar , actually the Apogee is the only audio card that is qualiffied to work on new imacs ask any audio seller where you live and he will recemond it as they say its designed for mac etc etc .

In your case on an SSD its not working and thats really sad to hear because i dont know what to expect from other cards in this case..... why does the imac have USB 3 only when the rest of teh world is still on USB 2 whats the logic can someone tell us please ???

Apogee will probably update their software soon, I would imagine the problem can be corrected