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trevorpsy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

I am unable to upgrade to Mavericks, because my business is dependent on Now Up to Date.  Finding an adequate substitute maybe be possible after a lot of research; however, I have detailed Now Up to Date patient records that stretch back more than 10 years.  This easily searchable database is essential to my continued operation.

 

This leads to two questions that I've had for years:  Why does every new release of the Mac operating system break essential software?  And, why does Microsoft not have this problem?

 

Is Microsoft doing more thorough research on the demands and limitations of old software and is therefore much better able to support legacy software while still continuing to innovate?

 

Another question comes to mind:  Why on earth did Apple abandon Rosetta -- one of it most elegant inventions?  As Apple must certainly be aware, many PowerMac programs never made the transition to the Intel world.  Loss of these programs has unnecessarily cheapened Apple's brand and reputation as a company that cares about its user base.  It has also handed Microsoft an excellent advertising advantage.  Although I don't like their operating system, I am sympathetic to their claim that they treat their customer base with respect.  When a Microsoft user buys Windows software, he or she can rest easy in the knowledge that in a couple years their investment will continue to function.


MacBook Pro, OS X Mountain Lion (10.8.5)
  • Tony T1 Level 6 Level 6 (8,825 points)

    If you upgrade to Lion, Mountain Lion or Mavericks, you cannot run Power PC Programs (As you know, OS X no longer supports Rosetta).  If you must use Software from a company that has not upgraded their software or is no longer in business (Now Software suspended its day-to-day operations in March 2010), you can install Snow Leopard Server (for $20):  See:  https://discussions.apple.com/message/23364537#23364537

     

    Install Snow Leopard Server on a separate Partition, and you can run Mavericks and Snow Leopard from the same Mac (either with Boot Camp, or with Parallels or Fusion)

  • trevorpsy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Tony,

     

    I appreciate the time you've taken to reply, but I think you're missing the larger point. 

     

    In the Windows world, truly ancient software that went obsolete years ago continues to run on every version of Windows dating back to XP.  Why can't this kind of integrity exist in the Apple universe?

     

    Actually, this reply is coming to you from my 2008 MacPro desktop running Mavericks and Snow Leopard.  Unfortunately, I can't do this on my 2011 laptop: It's Mavericks or Snow Leopard, not both.  But why am I forced to worry about this?  Why won't programs updated more than 3 years old just run?  Why should I have to worry about the financial stability of a company when I buy its software?  As it stands, if the company fails, there's a significant risk that its software will  be useless in several years. 

     

    What happens when my current Snow Leopard-compatible hardware needs to be replaced?  I haven't checked, but will the new Mac Pro desktop machine run  Snow Leopard?  I doubt it.  Even if does, will the Apple desktop that comes out in 5 years run Snow Leopard?  No, it won't.  (Come to think of it:  I'm certain that the new laptops do not run Snow Leopard.)

     

    Here's what bothers me most of all:  We would not be having this discussion if  Apple  provided me emulated access to Snow Leopard from Mavericks.  I can emulate Windows XP on my Mavericks laptop.  Why can't I emulate Snow Leopard?   

     

    Let me finish with a real irony:  Sheep Shaver is free software that you can run on your Mavericks operating system which nearly flawlessly emulates System 9.  Using Sheep Shaver under Mavericks, I have access to software that went obsolete more than 10 years ago, but I can't run Now Up to Date. 

     

    Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply to my rant.  It's been a long time in coming.

     

    Trevor

     

    P.S.  When I tell my Windows friends that I can no longer run relatively new software on my Mac, they just roll their eyes and snicker.  This is humorous to them.

  • Tony T1 Level 6 Level 6 (8,825 points)

    Unfortunately, I can't do this on my 2011 laptop: It's Mavericks or Snow Leopard, not both. 

     

    On your 2011 laptop you can run Mavericks and Snow Leopard Server (see my 1st repy above).  For $20, this would solve your problem (and you should be looking for an alternative to "Now Up to Date" since they ceased operations 3 years ago)

     

    The issue is really with Now Software.  Apple announced in 2005 that "Apple would be making the transition from PowerPC to Intel processors over the following two years", so why didn't Now Software update their programs?

     

    BTW, when your Windows friends snicker, tell them that OS X 10.9 is free

  • trevorpsy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Sorry, I read your post too quickly.  At the moment I have regular Snow Leopard and Mavericks on one machine, which is what I thought you were talking about.  I didn't read the word "server." 

     

    What emulation software would I need to bring Snow Leopard Server into Mavericks?  At the moment, I'm running Parallels Desktop.  Will this do it?  Would I load Snow Leopard Server into Parallels Destop in the same way that I loaded Windows XP?  To get Mavericks and Snow Leopard to fit on my lap top hard drive, I'll have to invest in a 750 GB drive, but that's doable.

     

    As to Now Up to Date:  If you look at my first email, you will see why an alternative to Now Up to Date doesn't exist.  First of all, the current alternatives are  not as powerful (see recent MacInTouch discussions), but most importantly, I have over 10 years of client records in Now Up to Date to which I need frequent access.  Like I say: expensive, irreparable consequences.

     

    Another breakage is Game House's Scrabble, which I play everyday.  (There are other Scrabble programs around, but they're not nearly as good.)  It's an intel product that Lion doesn't like.  There are many PowerMac programs that did not make the Intel transition that I can mention, one of them being Sigma Chess, the best chess program ever available for the Mac.  (I emailed the creator of Sigma Chess, and said that he doesn't have to time to port his program to Intel code.)  Another is Webster's 3rd International dictionary, which Britannica (it's owner) has no intention of upgrading.  It's the best English-language dictionary around, other than the Oxford.  The list goes on.  Each program by itself, doesn't seem all that important, but taken as whole, the damage is considerable.

     

    ----

     

    What my Windows friends would say is that they haven't had to upgrade since XP.  Some of them have Windows 7, and no one is interested in Windows 8.  So they're not out any money.  Personally, the more I run XP, the less I like it, but it does run everything and probably will for quite some time.  I'm sure the Microsoft is commited to keeping this advantage over Mac. 

     

    ----

     

    Why exactly did Apple kill Rosetta?  It was an inspired solution to a knotty problem.  Why not offer it to people who want to pay for it?  I realize that this would involve introducing alot of code into Mavericks, but there are many of us willing to make this worth Apple's efforts.

  • William Lloyd Level 7 Level 7 (20,940 points)

    Unfortunately, while Now Up to Date may be essential software for YOU, it is TEN YEAR OLD SOFTWARE from a company that went out of business a few year ago (their efforts to come out with Now X, which was many years late and many dollars short) put them out of business.

     

    Given the company is long since dead, you really should have started thinking about what you were going to do years ago.  And not updated to Mavericks without doing some homework.  Because Apple can't test with ALL software, and something that's now 10 years old is unlikely high on that list.

     

    As far as why Apple killed Rosetta, who knows.  It's likely it was a pretty complex piece of software, and continued support of it at low levels of the OS would have significantly hindered their ability to do things in the future.

     

    For you, you may want to consider picking up an old used machine to run Now Up to Date, until you can move that data and records to something more modern.

     

    You didn't HAVE to upgrade from 10.6 to Mavericks.  You can keep running Snow Leopard as long as your system runs.  But it's running a pretty old version of OS X now, which means that most new software won't run on it.

  • Tony T1 Level 6 Level 6 (8,825 points)

    What emulation software would I need to bring Snow Leopard Server into Mavericks?  At the moment, I'm running Parallels Desktop.  Will this do it?  Would I load Snow Leopard Server into Parallels Destop in the same way that I loaded Windows XP?

     

    Yes, see the discussion at: https://discussions.apple.com/message/23364537#23364537

    (or you could use Bootcamp)

     

    As to Now Up to Date:  I think that it went obsolete just before Lion came out.  My version is the "universal" variety, which runs under all System 10 incarnations from Mountain Lion back.  Mavericks broke it for mysterious reasons.  This is the first breakage with expensive and irreparable consequences. 

     

    Now that's differnt than what you first posted.  This is not a Rosetta issue.  If your App ran on Mountain Lion, it was not using Rosetta and should be working on Mavericks.  What happens?  Does the App load?  Are there any error messages (look in Console also)

     

    I wonder if you can fix your issue if you strip the Power PC code from your App?

    See: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-20039495-263.html

     

     

    What my Windows friends would say is that they haven't had to upgrade since XP.

     

    Support for Windows XP is ending on April 8, 2014 (snicker )

    see: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help

  • Paul Conaway Level 3 Level 3 (590 points)

    Trevorpsy, The question becomes how many is "but there are many of use willing to make this worth Apple's efforts." I'm sure it will never be enough to make it worth Apple's efforts.

     

    As for Microsoft, they are ending support for XP on April 8th, 2014. If your friends have issues with XP after that date then they are out of luck.

     

    As for the apps you mention that no longer work. It seems to me that their creators do not see a financial incentive to update their programs. Sigma Chess in your example says he doesn't have time to make it compatible with lion. As a programmer myself I read, the return on investment of time and energy doesn't come close to the amount of new revenue. It he was making money hand over fist then I"m sure he would find the time to make the update.

     

    It isn't feasable to support everyone for everything for all times. How long would you suggest that Apple or any company support users. 5, 10, 20 years? Computers change a lot in just a couple of years.

  • trevorpsy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I didn't mean to imply that it was a Rosetta issue.  I am allowed to discuss more than one issue in an email.  Yes?

     

    When you try launch Now Up to Date in Mavericks, it looks like it's going to run, but nothing happens.  No error message.  Nothing happens.  Take a look at recent MacInTouch discussions about this issue.

     

    Yes, support is ending for Windows XP is ending, but I'm sure it will have many satisfied owners for years to come.  Microsoft isn't going to cut its own throat.  There are millions of XP owners, many of whom are running hundreds of machines in single businesses.  Trying to get them to spend 10 of thousands of dollars for an upgrade they feel they don't need isn't economically viable. 

     

    ---

     

    No, my version of Now Up to Date is eight years old.  It's an upgrade of versions that stretch back to System 9 with over 10 years of client records, to which I need constant access.

  • Tony T1 Level 6 Level 6 (8,825 points)

    trevorpsy wrote:

     

    I didn't mean to imply that it was a Rosetta issue.  I am allowed to discuss more than one issue in an email.  Yes?

     

    Yes, but I incorrectly inferred that that was the problem.

     

    Yes, support is ending for Windows XP is ending, but I'm sure it will have many satisfied owners for years to come.  Microsoft isn't going to cut its own throat.  There are millions of XP owners, many of whom are running hundreds of machines in single businesses.

     

    I use XP occasionally on a Bootcamp partiton.  There are at least a dozen secutity updates to XP each month. There will be no more updates to XP in 6 months.

     

    Trying to get them to spend 10 of thousands of dollars for an upgrade they feel they don't need isn't economically viable.

     

    Microsoft can always to what Apple just did -- Free OS Upgrade!

  • trevorpsy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    You're right about Sigma Chess:  He never got a proper return on his investment.  It was a labor of love, more than anything else.  You can gather this in his emails.  However, he's out of energy for his pet project. 

     

    You don't have to support everyone in perpetuity.  Just provide access.  If I can emulate Snow Leopard Server as easily as I emulate System 9 and Windows XP, I'll be happy.  No more complaints.  Believe me, I will be on the phone Monday morning with my Snow Leopard Server order.  But first I need to know exactly how this emulation would be acomplished.

     

    Perhaps you're right about adding Rosetta now to Mavericks, but it could have been maintained in Lion for a fee, that I think would have been worth Apple's time and expense.  Did they consider making Rosetta an extra cost add-on at the time?  What got in the way?

     

    And if the add-on had proven profitable, they could have it carried into Mavericks.

  • trevorpsy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Oh well, yeah.  Different culture over there at Microsoft. 

     

    Apple, being the less-than-10-percent-of-the-desktop-market manufacturer has the luxury of being quicker on it's feet.  And this is the real reason why Windows XP has had such a long life.  Microsoft has too big of a user base to pull the plug on anything that isn't ancient. 

  • Tony T1 Level 6 Level 6 (8,825 points)

    If I can emulate Snow Leopard Server as easily as I emulate System 9 and Windows XP, I'll be happy.  But first I need to know exactly how this emulation would be acomplished.

     

    Did you read the thread I referenced?

    See http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1365439 to find out "how"

  • Paul Conaway Level 3 Level 3 (590 points)

    Yes, you should be able to run Snow Leopard server from a Parallels instance just like running windows.

  • Tony T1 Level 6 Level 6 (8,825 points)

    trevorpsy wrote:

     

    And this is the real reason why Windows XP has had such a long life.  Microsoft has too big of a user base to pull the plug on anything that isn't ancient.

     

    Microrsoft will "pull the plug" on XP in April.

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