Netflix quality HORRID after update

boylan wrote:

If I recall right, your situation, and certainly others, has been static since 11/11ish. You get better results on other devices and unacceptable on ATV.

I think my experience rules out the ATV client being at fault and neither your experience nor mine rules out this being a CDN side streaming problem. The anecdotal data points pretty strongly in that direction.

At this point I think I've been pretty clear:

nflxvideo -> ATV bad

nflxvideo -> any other device good (superHD on capable devices).

Can this be a CDN issue? Yes, but it seems unlikely. Is it's a transit or provisioning issue per jimpal? No.

I've spent a fair bit of time monitoring network traffic (as have others). The nflxvideo addresses are consistent in IP address, consistent in number, consistent across clients and consistent in latency. This means that from my ISP's perspective they look the same.

By the way, I observed some time ago that connections to Limelight or Level3 (very rare) suit the ATV but (as one might expect) being sourced from other than Netflix's own network is rare for me unlike the people that are now getting superHD.

Why do people think it's a client issue: because the first reports were from people that saw a change after the 6.0.2 update. Being proximate doesn't imply cause but at this point although it's by no means a surety in my mind I'm still inclined to think there's an interaction between some part of the Apple/Netflix client and the Netflix network.

I used to be more confident of the cause. I remain confident in my measurements and those make certain conclusions unlikely at best.

bodosom wrote:

boylan wrote:

If I recall right, your situation, and certainly others, has been static since 11/11ish. You get better results on other devices and unacceptable on ATV.

I think my experience rules out the ATV client being at fault and neither your experience nor mine rules out this being a CDN side streaming problem. The anecdotal data points pretty strongly in that direction.

At this point I think I've been pretty clear:

nflxvideo -> ATV bad

nflxvideo -> any other device good (superHD on capable devices).

Can this be a CDN issue? Yes, but it seems unlikely. Is it's a transit or provisioning issue per jimpal? No.

I've spent a fair bit of time monitoring network traffic (as have others). The nflxvideo addresses are consistent in IP address, consistent in number, consistent across clients and consistent in latency. This means that from my ISP's perspective they look the same.

By the way, I observed some time ago that connections to Limelight or Level3 (very rare) suit the ATV but (as one might expect) being sourced from other than Netflix's own network is rare for me unlike the people that are now getting superHD.

Why do people think it's a client issue: because the first reports were from people that saw a change after the 6.0.2 update. Being proximate doesn't imply cause but at this point although it's by no means a surety in my mind I'm still inclined to think there's an interaction between some part of the Apple/Netflix client and the Netflix network.

I used to be more confident of the cause. I remain confident in my measurements and those make certain conclusions unlikely at best.

It's not related to the 6.0.2 software update. You can down rev all you want and it still won't work for you.

It didn't work for me.

Like I said, I can't prove this, but it appears the users who are getting 5800kbps on their ATV are all on Limelight. I don't recall anyone who has posted they are [now] getting good results from the netflix cdn.

I plan on running comparative tests between my iPad and ATV-3 about once a week. That way I will know when i can stop using AirPlay, and use the ATV directly.

Very steady 15mbs down and 1.5 up from my TWC cable service here in San Diego.

2:00 PM PST - ATV stream testing using the good old "Example Short 23.976". All values in kbps:

5800 (5 sec)==>1750==>3000==>3850==>4300 (all with the next 3 min) held at 4300 for 8 min

Restarted

5800 (5 sec) ==>2350==>3850==>4300 (at the 60 sec mark)==>5800 (at the 90 second mark), held for rest of the video (11 min or so).

iPad3 - 4300 solid each time i tested.

5:30 PM PST ATV -

560==>1050 (max, never higher)

iPad3 - 4300 Solid, AirPlayed Haven & Miss Fisher - Solid HD picture.

Go figure. I have not had the time to figure out which CDN my devices are connecting with, but to me this issue is down to the two most popular theories: Directly tied to the performance of the CDN server, or a significant difference in the implementation of the ATV Netflix app and the iPad Netflix app.

I have made my report to both Apple via the online bug reporting, and via CS phone and chat at Netflix. If you read my past posts you can see Netflix's position. Here is to Apple and Netflix and the ISP's fixing this issue before we are all 6 feet under.......

PS - for new readers (my ATV3 streams PBS, HBO GO, & ESPN at high quality HD)

Three weeks ago this topic had 48,000 views. Now it has 71,000 views.

Netflix is still not acknowledging that there is a problem (although a few on here have reported that Netflix said "we're aware of the problem" - I just did a chat with them and they said this isn't currently an issue and they tried the "oh have you checked your router...." line of attack.)

If you are a Netflix subscriber having the Apple TV problem, please go to their HELP page (it's in the drop-down under your account name when you log in through a browser) and pick "Live Chat." Tell them you're having this problem.

PLEASE. They don't consider something a tech issue until it's been reported by X,000 people.

Kirby

boylan wrote:

It's not related to the 6.0.2 software update. You can down rev all you want and it still won't work for you.

I have no pre 6.0.2 experience but if people that can monitor there network report it's release independent then it probably is.

boylan wrote:

Like I said, I can't prove this, but it appears the users who are getting 5800kbps on their ATV are all on Limelight. I don't recall anyone who has posted they are [now] getting good results from the netflix cdn.

Most reports are unsupported but the question remains: why are problems with nflxvideo limited to the ATV client (at least for some/most/all people that can check)? Some people suggest that ISPs (or even Netflix) haven't provisioned enough bandwidth but given the facts that assertion has to end with "for the ATV".. Some have suggested that Comcast-like throttling is still happening and everyone is doing it but again, given the facts that assertion has to end with "for the ATV". I find that implausible. So even though I have trouble with "the ATV is at fault" it currently makes more sense to me than an upstream issue/limitation/conspiracy.

met_fan wrote

Hasn't it been stated by several on this forum that different devices in the same home would connect to different CDNs?

Not for me. All of my devices connect to nflxvideo 99.9% of the time. The rest of the time it's Limelight.

bodosom wrote:

boylan wrote:

It's not related to the 6.0.2 software update. You can down rev all you want and it still won't work for you.

I have no pre 6.0.2 experience but if people that can monitor there network report it's release independent then it probably is.

boylan wrote:

Like I said, I can't prove this, but it appears the users who are getting 5800kbps on their ATV are all on Limelight. I don't recall anyone who has posted they are [now] getting good results from the netflix cdn.

Most reports are unsupported but the question remains: why are problems with nflxvideo limited to the ATV client (at least for some/most/all people that can check)? Some people suggest that ISPs (or even Netflix) haven't provisioned enough bandwidth but given the facts that assertion has to end with "for the ATV".. Some have suggested that Comcast-like throttling is still happening and everyone is doing it but again, given the facts that assertion has to end with "for the ATV". I find that implausible. So even though I have trouble with "the ATV is at fault" it currently makes more sense to me than an upstream issue/limitation/conspiracy.

bodosom wrote:

boylan wrote:

It's not related to the 6.0.2 software update. You can down rev all you want and it still won't work for you.

I have no pre 6.0.2 experience but if people that can monitor there network report it's release independent then it probably is.

boylan wrote:

Like I said, I can't prove this, but it appears the users who are getting 5800kbps on their ATV are all on Limelight. I don't recall anyone who has posted they are [now] getting good results from the netflix cdn.

Most reports are unsupported but the question remains: why are problems with nflxvideo limited to the ATV client (at least for some/most/all people that can check)? Some people suggest that ISPs (or even Netflix) haven't provisioned enough bandwidth but given the facts that assertion has to end with "for the ATV".. Some have suggested that Comcast-like throttling is still happening and everyone is doing it but again, given the facts that assertion has to end with "for the ATV". I find that implausible. So even though I have trouble with "the ATV is at fault" it currently makes more sense to me than an upstream issue/limitation/conspiracy.

It's pretty well documented that Netflix CDN's serve different devices or class of devices differently at each CDN. Back in the day, when Netflix customer server could look up your connection and streaming rate they were pretty up front about that. It makes sense if you think about it - they can't update some of the various clients in the field so there has to be some generational support at a minimum.

My trace routes to the three CDN's that serve my devices all cross connect through different points in Chicago and the performance problems are consistent with Netflix not having enough capacity there except for the Limelight cross connect.

I remember when you posted your NYC info that you were seeming more homogeneous results and getting somewhat better (less crappy?) streaming results.

boylan wrote:

It's pretty well documented that Netflix CDN's serve different devices or class of devices differently at each CDN.

I'm not sure what that means but when an ISP gets a cache to colocate at their facility they contain much of the Netflix library and of course they cache new stuff. The CDNs each get a complete copy of all Netflix assets in all resolutions. ISPs get traffic management knobs. I doubt thats the case for the CDNs but I don't know.

boylan wrote:

My trace routes to the three CDN's that serve my devices all cross connect through different points in Chicago and the performance problems are consistent with Netflix not having enough capacity there except for the Limelight cross connect.

I remember when you posted your NYC info that you were seeming more homogeneous results and getting somewhat better (less crappy?) streaming results.

All nyc001.nflxvideo ingress points hang off the same Level3 address relative to my gateway. There is some variability in latency say 20-40ms. Given the 2ms delta in the last three hops I assume TWC, Level3 and Netflix are all "at" the same Newark IX and the latency is a function of the internal nflxvideo architecture.

In any case all my non-ATV devices (that can) get superHD from those ingress points. They all get HD (except the android phones). The ATV continues to be wildly variable but the median is probably 1050 on the test clip.

When I was experimenting with shaping all the clients seemed reasonably robust and the second order effect was duty cycle. When shaped close to a natural bandwidth point the duty cycle was 100%. Given all 30Mbs it dropped to a few percent and the buffer size stopped increasing when it got to 8MB.

My ATV3 connects to this end-point and starts streaming at 5800 kbps

This connection drops it down to 3500-3800 kbps...

This one brings it back to 5800 kbps and stays with this server at 5800kbps for the duration of the Example Short 23.976.

The stream crosses VZ after about 5-7 hops.

I think the problem with the ATV is that the adaptive streaming it uses is very sensetive to any kinds of compression. As other streamers can handle congestion some better than others the ATV sees a slight dip in performance and drops the stream to horrible quality when it does not have to.

If they problem is ever fixed with any news saying so as all these tech bloggers don't mention anything about any ATV problems or Comcast. They are a complete waste of time. If even Apple said it was fixed then I will reconnect my ATV and try it again for Netflix as I did like it for Netflix the week and a half I used it until November 9, 2013 as it does not have that annoying post play.

Hello everyone.

I called my ISP first, "Nope, no throttling here." I also upped my Speed from them to 30dn x 10up.

All my streaming hardware are hardwired to ethernet, no wifi.

No help.

Called Netflix, "We have had quite a few calls from ATV users and are tracking the issue with Apple."

I call B. S. but I amuse the CSR by resetting my ATV (3rd Gen Rev A) and unplugging it, rebooting all my home's network gear, etc. Nothing better than 235kbps using the "Example Short 23.976."

"We will add your name to 'the list' for monitoring", etc. "Sorry. Goodbye."

No help.

So, I pull out the trusty Roku 3. Roll right in to the Netflix app. Same poor HD quality issue. THE SAME. 235kbps streaming during that weird timelapse dripping water video they asked me to use.

I pull out the Roku 2. Same issue with Netflix app.

I open the Amazon Streaming App on both Roku 2 & 3, Go to my queue, and choose Sherlock, Se1,Ep2. HD:

Magnificent 1080p Spectacularnessly plays flawlessly for the entire episode, now my wife is hooked on it so I'll rewatch and she will enjoy, via Amazon on Roku.

I do not think MY issue is with my ISP or AppleTV. Mine was still quite good HD quality before we went on vacation before the New Year.

It in my opinion this is a head end issue with all of the 1st month free folks out there who just opened all the new shiny SmartTV, iPad, ATV, Roku, X-Box, Blueray electronics goodies out there taking advantage of the plethera of content they may not have had access to before Santa came.

Netflix is having issues with demand plain and simple. OR Netflix is being throttled by ISP systems above mine between the head end and me.

PS3, iMac, iPhone, and iPad all work flawlessly. On the same network, the Apple TV can't maintain a constant bitrate to save it's life. It varies from 235 --> 1750 and never reaches 5800. My PS3 will hit 5800 in under a minute and maintain it for the entire length of the program. I'm tired of this!

Watching Netflix movie on Chromecast - perfect.

Tried to connect to Netflx on ATV - failed over and over.

I agree and now the once flawless Roku 3 & PS3 have problems. For me with Fringe at least half the time I go to watch a episode never fails it will drop down to SD around the 25-30 minute mark then only ramp up to 720p. Before that is stays in Super HD. This is why I hate adaptive I mean adaptdumb streaming. The older streaming methods with the dots will maintain a HD picture with no drop in quality.

I now see Amazon is testing the adaptive adaptdumb streaming now at least on the Roku 3.

As mentioned before, for me, both ATV and TiVo cannot stream Netflix at any but SD in the evenings; both work fine first thing on weekday mornings, so there is no software issue for me. Workaround is to stream to ATV from my iPhone or iPad - that always works in the evening when native Netflix on those 2 devices does not.