Suitable USB Card for PowerMac G3

Would i be correct in saying that the Belkin Hi-Speed USB 2.0 & FireWire PCI Card would be my best bet to purchase for my G3? The G3 has no USB Ports and I need the connections for printer and broardband. Would this be the right route to be going down?
One more thing, is the card easy to install and what other software might I need?

Hope someone can help
Regards
Mark (Inverness)

G3-beige Mac OS 9.1.x

Posted on Aug 4, 2006 5:09 AM

Reply
29 replies

Aug 13, 2006 2:35 AM in response to Inverness

Many thanks for the interesting answers to my rather innocent questions!

I recently purchased a Power Macintosh G3/300 Beige with 320 MB RAM and a 7350 Workgroup server, respectively for Internet gateway and writing tasks.

On a more personal note this decision was taken for the pleasure I had to use again my 1991 vintage Mac LC for business mail (including the 1984 Apple IIe Imagewriter printer!) Also I am very interested with OSX functionality versus Microsoft Windows professional OS (but that is another story:)

Yes, I will follow your kind advice and upgrade the G3/300 original 9.2 OS for Panther because it should be better suited for internet gateway tasks. The other Macintosh should be well off with Mac OS 9.2.

Now the reason for upgrading the machines with Firewire is that as a seasoned Windows veteran 🙂 I always begin to backup the original OS before an upgrade. And it seems that the way to go is Mac Disk Utility or Carbon Copy Cloner with a bootage Firewire external HD. I don't know if it is possible to boot the system with a DVD backup, though. The very interesting comparison with Microsoft OS is that you cannot boot XP from an external HD, be it USB or Firewire, or at least this is what I experimented myself.

On a PC it is also a better choice to choose Firewire over USB 2.0 for backup purpose because USB 2.0 tend to be more hardware dependent, and less reliable as a whole.

On a parallel note may I inquire about alternative backup strategies on the Mac? There are many quite expensive backup software for PC, and I am using Veritas Backup Exec and Symantec Livestate Recovery. But for the Mac, it seems that superior reliability comes with an other approach?!

Again many thanks for your input which has been a pleasure to read!

Frederic Erk

Aug 13, 2006 8:05 AM in response to FredericErk

Frederic,

Backup with the OSX is real easy, when you figure out the logic of how everything goes.

The thing you will need to be mindful of, is that on a beige, for hardware reasons, the OSX will have to sit on the master drive on the first partition and it cannot be more than 8GB in size. So on the actual OSX partition, you keep mostly just the OS and whatever active documents you may be working on at the time and naught else. For reasons of virtual memory, you don't want that drive getting too full anyhow - any applicaiton you use can be elsewhere, even on an external drive and if that program's icon is in the dock and the drive is connected, it will run.

Part of what happened with my CPU failure was that after running OSX since January, I figured out a few things and reformatted and re-partitioned the drives more sensibly. This is what I found works very well.

I have the second partition now at 10GB ("Applications") and this is where the OS9 that I installed Panther from sits. If I need to re-boot in to 9 to get full usage out of my Apple audio/video card, this partition does it. I also store the OSX applications that I don't use, like iPhoto, iMovie and others and have folders for the .dmg/.sit files for ALL the programs, OS9 and OSX versions that I've downloaded and tried and may want to use at a later date. You will be amazed at how much is available for OSX. There are NINE different browsers that I have found so far!! Like a kid in a candy store, I am.

The largest partition on the internal HD ("Music & Pictures") is where I have my iTunes music collection and where I keep my artwork.

It's all seperate, that way if OSX gets punked and needs a full re-install, I can re-boot into the OS9 partition, run XPF and re-install easily without having to worry about my other data. Did it three times last Sunday - and on the last one I figured out the custom installer and only loaded two languages in (why do I need to run the computer in Mandarin or Brazillian Portugese?) and saved myself almost a full GB of space.

Now my original OS9 image from 1999 ("Booger") is on a small partition on the external USB2/FireWire drive and since that has the running preferences for my Outlook Express 4.5, it works (!!) , so I use that running in the 'classic' mode to answer my e-mail.

The BIG partition ('boogerfiles') on the external drive is where all the duplicate everything is and that it is toteable is nifty since anywhere I go that there's a Mac w/OSX and classic capabilities, I can access my mail simply by hooking the drive up. Also, if I'm doing and installs with programs that I'm not sure of, I just eject the USB drive icons and turn it off during the install to be safe.

It's wonderful.

Deb.

Aug 13, 2006 9:06 AM in response to Deborah Terreson

Dear Deb,

Many thanks for your insightful post! You are right to say that using Mac OS is also a matter of perspective.

Within the context of Windows the backup strategy is based on making disk images of the operating system and applications, whereas the data is backed up on DVD or external hard drive.

With Macintosh OS it seems that the essential difference is that you can boot an operating system from an external hard drive, which is a wonderful thing. It is not possible to do so with Windows XP Professional, probably because the OS is activated on the hard disk for licencing purpose.

I totally concur with your division of partitions. Under Windows I am using multiple boot partitions in order to keep classic Windows 98SE, and applications as well as paging files are on dedicated partitions. In fact the partitions are smaller, hence making defragmentation and backing up much easier.

I am nonetheless curious with the 8 GB maximum size of the partition dedicated to OSX.

Another question: how do you choose at startup which OS you want to boot? Is one of the partition hidden (though I don't think so!) or desactivated? Or more likely it is not and then is there not a risk of OSX corrupting OS9?

Again many thanks for this interesting discussion,

Frederic

P.S. I really am delighted with this forum. Its UI is excellent. The membership is well behaved and discussions are constructive. What a difference with other hardware forums!

Aug 13, 2006 12:07 PM in response to FredericErk

What kinds of drives you can boot from depends on Hardware.

If you have a PCI card that is very smart, like a PCI SCSI card or PCI IDE card specifically designed for the Mac, drives attached to it are often bootable.

FireWire cards are often intended for Macs that came with the ability to boot from FireWire (G4 Macs and later), so they generally do not contain the "smarts" to be bootable on Macs that do not inherently boot from FireWire drives.

It is interesting to note that a startup file does not help -- the file cannot be fetched from the drive unless the drive is already bootable.

Aug 13, 2006 2:37 PM in response to FredericErk

LOL Well thank you Frederic!

As to the boot-abiliy of OSX on a beige, I think that if it were to happen that you needed an external way to do so, you would need a XPostFacto boot disk of some sort and a FireWire card installed. I am not sure of this, but there are others here who would know for certain.

With my beige, I can boot from the OS9 CD and then launch XPF to get me into Panther if the hard drive is acting surly. Because you have hardware that has it's own native operating system it prefers to play with, getting up and running is relatively simple when you figure out the logic. The coolest part is, OS9 doesn't mess with the OSX partition and leaves it alone. The ONE thing you have to be careful of however, is that OS9 gives you root privileges to the hard drive, and you can see a lot (but not all) of the files that OSX will have as invisible. Be careful there. Whereas OSX makes you type in passwords to get ot the guts of the code, OS9 doesn't, and if you're messing with the files in the OSX drive and you move the wrong thing, you can poach your system.

The issue with selecting the proper drive to start the system is limited by the XPostFacto boot enabler itself. After Jaguar OS X 10.2, Apple made it necessary for there to be a built-in USB resident in the hardware. XPF gets the system to load and either re-writes or fools the installer to firstly install the OS, then to boot sucessfully afterwards.

Because of this, having the drives set as master and slave and on the correct IDE bus is essential. To get the system to boot into OS9, you would press and hold the alt/option key as soon as you hear the startup chime. This stops XPF from launching OSX and the system will default to look for the next viable system folder, which would be the OS9 (which is after all, native to the hardware) on the next partition of the master drive. You'll want all the OS9 versions of the drivers for your PCI cards installed, of course..

You only have 1 option for your OS9 boot-up, even though you may have more than 1 system folder available: I cannot use the OS9 that is on 'Booger' to startup, unless I were to take it out of the external USB case and connect it to the internal IDE and disconnect the OSX drive. That is why it is now what I run the Classic out of exclusively. There are some limitations, that have to do with the unsupported nature of Panther in a beige, that is one. The other, is the 8GB limit, and to be honest, I'm not exactly sure of why, but it's only on the beige G3's - perhaps it's some function of the on-board ROM - I don't know. Any later USB-native G3's like the Blue & White models or the iMacs don't have this issue and all the newer Macs of course, can have huge partitions and drives in them.

Having full disk images on a Mac for the backup is somewhat redundant. If you'll be purchasing a new Mac, you ALWAYS get full install disks for the computer (they may be hardware specific for the model however) and if you purchase a universal installer (which you will want for Panther on your beige - see if you can find the 3 CD set, NOT the DVD, BTW..) you'll have it all right there. Once you install and get online - before you load anything else - get the OS to take whatever updates from Apple you'll need. Then add the other applications after you get it to OS 10.3.9 (the CD set I have is only 10.3.4).

As to serial numbers for applications you purchase - it's always best to write them down in a book. I have a little spiral-bound notebook with all of them. so if there is a real nasty issue that demands a clean install (like I had), I just checked the list in the book, saw everything was there, backed-up what I needed and nuked the drive. Easy peasy.

Just so you know, since you've mentioned the defrag and no doubt are a heavy user of ScanDisk you're in for a big surprise! Due to the UNIX framework under the Apple Mac GUI, the filesystem is totally different. It does NOT defrag and push all the data (other than the OS for obvious read-speed issues) to one area and tightly pack it in continuous blocks. It more or less evenly spaces the applications across the drive to give room between each for whatever virtual memory computing space it may need. Makes for faster read-writes from what I can gather, and the first (and last) time I ran Norton to run the SpeedDisk to defrag, it kept telling me the drive was heavily fragmented - and this was ONE day after my original install back in January! Whoop! Not using that again. I found a better disk utility tool called DiskWarrior that understands the UNIX filesystem and doesn't try to move everything around. You don't want that, left to it's own devices, the OS has it's own scheduled maintenance and defrags on-the-fly and moves applications closer to the beginning of the drive based on how often you use them (somewhat like Norton SpeedDisk does I'm told). There are some small control panel applications that can schedule all the relevant disk maintenance for you, and in case of a real tough problem, DW for re-building the disk directory is about all that you'll need.

Deb.

Aug 14, 2006 3:20 AM in response to Deborah Terreson

Dear Deb,

I confess my lack of knowledge with Apple hardware and OS since my days of practice go back to the early 90es. At this point you have answered to all my (present) questions, and it is better for me now to experiment a little with Macintosh hardware by myself! Often unexpected difficulties arise from practice, whereas expected difficulties vanish as if by magic.

Would you mind my asking you a few more questions, though?

It appears that Panther will not install on a Macintosh without built-in USB. I suppose that XPostFacto is necessary to fool the installation process. Now my approach to the problem is the following:

1. To keep the original operating system (9.2) which is installed on the master drive, and either physically remove it or switch it to slave.

2. Install an used 80 GB Seagate I recovered from a PC workstation, set it as master and format it. Then install Panther on this unit.

The advantage of this solution is simplicity because I am not very comfortable with the idea of toying with dual-boot on a Macintosh system. This solution is also quite economical for me. The problem is however to know how to use XPostFacto in order to resolve the lack of built-in USB. I presume that I have to install it first.

Again many thanks for your kind help! It is a very good thing for Apple to have a dedicated community of this quality.

Frederic.

P.S. Norton defrag utility is a rather confusing piece of software. On my old Pentium II hardware with Windows 98SE, it performed well. But Norton is just too slow for large partitions, and even under late Windows OS its results are confusing. In general unless you have specific needs I think that the default OS defrag utility is the safest choice.

Aug 14, 2006 5:22 AM in response to FredericErk

It appears that Panther will not install on a Macintosh without built-in USB. I suppose that XPostFacto is necessary to fool the installation process.

This very old thread might be of interest. Of course the verison of XPF Bill W and I worked with has long since been improved. But other than that, the procedures we outlined do work.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=607372

Install an used 80 GB Seagate I recovered from a PC workstation, set it as master and format it. Then install Panther on this unit.

Do remember that X will only install on the first partition, which must be no larger than 8 gB. And the drive must be jumpered as 'master' to be bootable.

As for backing up, for years I have used SilverKeeper. It is free, and LaCie distributes it with their external FW drives.
http://www.lacie.com/silverkeeper/

Aug 14, 2006 6:04 AM in response to Eustace Mendis

USB is not required for Apple to install Mac OS X natively. What is required is a particular version of the Boot ROM that contains a number of arcane routines used in the Boot-up process. The simplest way to identify these ROMs is to notice that they are exactly the ones that also contain support for Macs that shipped with built-in USB.

Adding USB does not change the fact that your Mac does not contain the required routines in its ROM.

Aug 14, 2006 7:23 AM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Frederic,

Pretty much everyone else has nailed it. Onboard USB is not necessary to install OSX. As Grant wrote, it is the ROM on the board that came with the USB native machines that the installer looks for - my apologies for not being clear on that. You install and launch XPF from the OS9 drive. Format the 80GB drive (to HFS+) and jumper it to master w/ an 8GB partition and install OSX onto that. For a real insteresting install, set the XPF to verbose mode like so: http://www.geocities.com/foodandart/XPFOptions.jpg - this window opens when you hit the 'options' button in the lower right of the main XPF window. Most importantly of all - HAVE FUN! 🙂

Deb.

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Suitable USB Card for PowerMac G3

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