Extreme or Express ?

I will check if I still have it set for legacy “g” WDS

Hopefully, they are not. WDS runs at a maximum of "g" wireless speeds....54 Mbps....and you will lose half of that bandwidth when you set up another WDS "relay" or "remote". So, the best that could hope to achieve with a WDS setup would be about 27 Mbps.

That is with 2 WDS devices. If you have 3 WDS devices, then the bandwidth on the entire network will drop down to about 14 Mbps.

If you are using Apple's "extend" settings, then they will at least support "n" and "ac" speeds....but you should still expect to lose about half of the network bandwith when you try to "extend" wirelessly. That is the nature of the beast.

So, if you have an "n" AirPort Express set up to "extend" the 2.4 GHz signal, the maximum speed that this device will allow is about 65 Mbps.

That is why we always suggest that for best performance AirPorts be connected together using Ethernet....since there is no bandwidth loss in a wire, each AirPort gets the maximum network bandwidth to work with.

The best investment that I have ever made in terms of performance was having Ethernet cabling run to several areas of the house. The improvement in signal strength, speed, stability and reliability was simply amazing....and I was using 3-4 year old AirPorts at the time.

I think what I could do is get a new 802.11ac Airport Extreme the laptop in "ac" mode and bridge/WDS my Dual Band "n" Airport Express

The AirPort Express cannot work with "ac" signals, but it could "extend" the 5 GHz "n" signal from the AirPort Extreme......but only if you have line of sight....or very close to that ideal....between the AirPorts.

That is because 5 GHz signals are much weaker than 2.4 GHz signals. If it were me, I would expect that the AirPort Express will pick up the much stronger 2.4 GHz signal and "extend" that. That would mean that you could expect the AirPort Express to deliver about 65 Mbps or so to the area where it is working.

If you are very lucky and the Express does "extend" the 5 GHz signal, then you might be looking at something in the range of 150-200 Mbps in that area.

Bob: Thanks so much or the reply!

I understand the Express is not "ac" but I need that audio out. Physically the two routers are almost line of sight, right above and below the stairs, less than 20 ft apart with one partially intervening wall so I can likely extend the 5 GHz "n" signal (not using the older Express at all). So can I can configure the Express extend forced on the 5 GHz "n" SSID? If so, what happens with the 5 Ghz "ac" channel, I could connect to it with my MacBook Pro, and what bandwidth, 1/2 "ac" capability? And, what about 2.4 Ghz channels on the Extreme and Express? Do I need to setup 4 SSID's?

5 Ghz "ac"

5 Ghz "n"

2.4 Ghz "n" Extreme

2.4 Ghz "n" Express

I'm getting a headache

Robert

Things would be much simpler if you use Apple's defaults of having the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz bands use the same wireless network name. That way you only have to set up one SSID.

"ac" works on 5 GHz. Capable devices will pick up the "ac" signal automatically

5 GHz "n" capable devices will pick up the 5 GHz "n" signal automatically

2.4 GHz "n" capable devices will pick up the 2.4 GHz 'n" signal automatically

You don't have to worry about anything else when you do it this way. Every device will automatically connect to the best signal quality with which it is capable based on its location in relation to the AirPort.

Isn't that really what you want?

Isn't that really what you want?

It is, but I want my cake and eat it too . I could live with 65 mbs on the 2.4 Ghz "n" frequency but only if I can get >105 Mbps on 5 GHz "n" ( "n" and "ac" if I add a new Extreme bridged to dual channel Express). But I think you are telling me that is not possible with my network-bridged since if I let everything happen automatically I would likely expect the extend to occur on the 2.4 Ghz frequency and I could expect about 65 Mbps bandwidth.

If I am going to pay for 105 Mbs I want to have 105 Mbs capability on my wireless network, seems silly to pay for it otherwise. If I leave everything as is, I might as well just pay the cheaper price for 50 Mbps Comcast.

Since I already know one Express won't reach the whole house, as I understand you, the only way to access the full 105 Mbs is to:

1. Hardwire the two Expresses together (from upstairs to downstairs).

2. Buy one new Extreme, put it downstairs in my AVR cabinet and hope I get enough reach for the whole house and hardwire the Express right next to it for the sole purpose of using its audio out.

I really do appreciate all your help and time

Robert

1. Hardwire the two Expresses together (from upstairs to downstairs).

Always the best performance option, if you can run the Ethernet cable. If you can, then you are already set up for the next generation of routers that will come along.

2. Buy one new Extreme, put it downstairs in my AVR cabinet

You would not want to put a wireless router in a cabinet. Put it on top of the cabinet. Think of the router as a water sprinkler. You want to get as much of the area as wet as possible.

and hope I get enough reach for the whole house

Anything is possible, but I would be surprised if a single router could provide good coverage to the remote areas. Once a signal has gone through several walls, or a ceiling and a few walls, it is pretty much gone. Would be a good idea to keep Plan B of adding one or more extenders in mind to cover the remote areas.

Put it on top of the cabinet.

Good point, will do.

Plan B of adding one or more extenders in mind to cover the remote areas

I think we beat to death that with my Express bridgedmy maximum bandwith connecting devices on 5 GHz, 2.4 GHz, "n" , "ac" and from any router will likely be only 65 Mbps.

Can you suggest a way to extend my Apple routers, not lose 1/2 the bandwith and without Cat 5 ethernet wiring? Power Line? Looks like some of the new 500 Mbps Spec gear will reach >200 Mbps. Btw I don't have a NAS so all this discussion about the need for no more than 105 Mbps is valid.

Powerline is worth a try if you have the time and patience to try different products. Always make sure that you understand the store's return policy before you buy.

The specifications are pretty much meaningless. I can't get more than 100-120 Mbps from any 500 Mbps powerline product that I've ever tried unless the devices are on the same electrical circuit. Then, maybe 200-250 Mpbs is possible, but the speed drops quickly the further the devices are from each other.

Chances are, the upstairs and downstairs are not on the same circuit, so my advice for users with powerline always remains the same......

Understand the store's return policy before you buy since there is no way to know how well....or if....the products will work in your home until you try them out in your home.

If you try powerline, let us know how it works if you can.

I can't get more than 100-120 Mbps from any 500 Mbps powerline product...Then, maybe 200-250 Mpbs is possible

Didn't think to even check this before now, the new Extreme is Gigabit, but looking at the specs for the Express:

• 10/100BASE-T Ethernet WAN port for connecting a DSL modem, cable modem, or Ethernet network
• 10/100BASE-T Ethernet LAN port for connecting a computer, Ethernet hub, or networked printer

So best I can do with the Express is 100 Mbps on the powerline, besides 105 Mbps from Comcast I'm sure is not guaranteed.

Chances are, the upstairs and downstairs are not on the same circuit

Yup, separate panels fed out of separate breakers at the meter box, so much for that idea.

I guess what I'll do is experiment with cabling directly to the modem, turning off and on the bridged Express and checking speeds for the different connections and SSID's and see if I can figure out exactly what kind of bandwidth hit I'm getting and can expect.... early in the morning with all devices but the testing device off the network (except the NSA of course 😮). I may even get and test the Extreme, we have a local Apple store, and I can return it if it doesn't bridge at 5 GHz. If I come across an "ah HA!" moment I'll post back

Thanks again for all your help.

Robert

Bob:

So I confirmed the other night that I do get about 1/2 the bandwidth with the downstairs Express extending the network from Upstairs. I was getting about 15 Mbps in wireless Extend mode, but got 28 Mbps when I turned off the downstairs Express. I used the WiFi Explorer App to verify my signal strength and make sure I wasn't getting bad channel overlap with networks in neighboring houses, and I used Activity Monitor to make sure nothing else was accessing the network. Btw, the only option in the Airport software is to "Extend", no mention of WDS.

I would like to see what bandwidth I get with a roaming network using a cable stretched between the two devices but the Express only has the one Ethernet port, I looked at how to configure the roaming network with the Extreme but am not clear if I can use a switch? I have a little 5 port one I can borrow from work.

Robert

The simplest thing to do....(which is almost always the best thing to do as well).... is connect an Ethernet cable from one of the LAN <--> Ethernet ports on the AirPort Extreme to the Ethernet port on the AirPort Express, reset the Express and let AirPort Utility 6.x handle the setup.

If it is more convenient to connect an Ethernet switch to the AirPort Extreme and then connect the AirPort Express back to the Ethernet switch, that is an option, assuming that all of the connections are good. More connections = more chances of problems.

AirPort Utility will call this "extend", but if you watch the setup closely you will see that the utility will indicate that the Express is being configured to "extend using Ethernet", so it will automatically set up the Express in the correct roaming configuration.

The big "IF" in your network is the 100 Mbps port on the Express, as it cannot deliver any more than 100 Mbps back to the AirPort Extreme.

If you want the optimum performance option, you will need another AirPort Extreme instead of the AirPort Express. That way, the 270+ Mbps wireless speed of the Express will not be reduced and cut down to 100 Mbps.

I just read through this thread and learned so much! Gave me some ideas for extending the reach of my setup.
But, I have a basic question before I start--my Extreme is set up as "Participate in WDS Network" and the Express is setup as "Extend Wireless." Should I change the Extreme to Extend Wireless, too?

And I see on my Airport Utility that the Time Capsule (Extreme) shows a green light, but says, "WDS Error" and explains, "The Airport Base Station is setup as part of a WDS network, but no other Airport base stations were found."

I'm just confused...should I be changing the Extreme and Express to the same setting--both WDS or both "extend wireless" for starters?

Or should I leave things as they are?

Thanks!