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Joe M21 Author

Level 1

85 points

problem with create archive from mini-DV tape

I have a fairly large collection of homemade mini-DV tapes. They are getting a bit old and I would like to back them up to my computer as well as have easy access to the footage with FCP.

The tapes were made on a Sony TRV8 camcorder (either directly or as backups of older VHS tapes). I am using the same camcorder for playback.

The camera shows up as expected in FCP. My goal is to "Create Archive" on each tape. Here is where I ran into some problems.

My first tape ran about halfway through - around the 30 min mark and gave me a "end of tape" message. The footage was captured properly, but there is still half the tape to go. I tried a second time and only reached the 5 minute mark when the archiving ended with an "end of tape" message. I am on my third try as I type this and have made it to the 15 minute mark.

I thought to possibly create multiple archives, picking up where I left off. However, whenever I select "create archive" FCP insists on rewinding the tape to the start. This behavior differs from the Apple KB article which states archiving will start from the current position of the tape.

Adding to the problem is an issue of jittering playback.

When I playback using the camera controls of the "play" button in the import window, things are fine. When "Create Archive" handles the playback on its own, the pictures jumps as if it is on a trampoline. Sometimes I am able to hit "stop" and then "play" to get a normal playback - sometimes hitting stop stops the archive with an "end of tape" message.

Any ideas on what is going wrong or how to work around it? I have over 100 tapes to archive. If each tape requires numerous attempts to archive, this will never get done. I thought the archive process was supposed to import the entire tape?

Mac Pro, OS X Yosemite (10.10.1), 20GB Ram

Posted on Dec 8, 2014 11:16 AM

37 replies

Alchroma

Level 7

23,857 points

Dec 8, 2014 10:08 PM in response to Joe M21

This thread has caught my interest.

DV and HDV tape to FCP X has always been finicky in the capture department.

So it's test time for me as tape is not my usual format these days.

Got my tapes and deck out of mothballs and started operations.

Deck used: Sony GV-HD700 with DV and HDV tapes.

OS: 10.10.1 Yosemite

FCP X: 10.1.4

Mac: MBPro 8,3

Results from QuickTime X 10.4 on HIGH quality setting:

Results fro QuickTime X 10.4 on MAXIMUM setting:

Note that both are odd bod dimensions for DV and will require rendering in FCP X.

QuickTime X IMO is not a sensible approach to capture for FCP X as there are no adjustable settings other than the above.

This may be a Yosemite thing as I noticed slight changes in the UI.

Next thing tested was my personal favourite, QuickTime 7 Pro which allows user control:

That's much better.

A file that is correct for DV PAL and requires no rendering when added to a standard FCP X DV Project.

BTW: Also tested HDV and found that both DV and HDV captured directly to FCP X 10.1.4 without issue, just like the old FCPro days, swwweeet.

If anyone can confirm these findings please report in with your story.

On Yosemite things seem to working better than ever.

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,116 points

Dec 9, 2014 2:44 AM in response to Alchroma

TThanks for that Al. Yes, something has definitely changed and is seriously wrong in QuickTime. Wondering if you could try a quick test in iMovie and see what happens there. That might be another workaround.

Alchroma

Level 7

23,857 points

Dec 9, 2014 5:12 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Tom Wolsky wrote:

TThanks for that Al. Yes, something has definitely changed and is seriously wrong in QuickTime. Wondering if you could try a quick test in iMovie and see what happens there. That might be another workaround.

Tom,

Works like a charm.

After capturing use File>Send Event to Final Cut Pro.

FCP X opens, creates a Library and Event and copies the files from iMovie all automatically, one click, dead easy.

No rendering in FCP X and frame size etc. all good.

I'm not sure if iMovie has the one field issue of older versions but all looked OK to me.

I'm used iMovie 10.0.6

In any case it is an option.

Joe M21 Author

Level 1

85 points

Dec 9, 2014 7:51 PM in response to Alchroma

Quick follow-up...

I tried a new firewire cable. That helped things quite a bit. I still think my tapes are getting old and that is part of the problem (also the reason why I thought it time to back up everything). My camera (used for playback) also seems to be on its last legs. I am looking at used miniDV players since it doesn't seem my camera will last through all 100+ tapes.

Question: Looking at a Sony GV D900 and a DSR 11. The DV900 has a screen, which is convenient. The DSR 11 is a little more expensive and has not screen. The 11, however, seems like it was made for commercial vs consumer use. Its a bit of a crap shoot with used gear, but any idea which one might be a better unit to consider?

Import is going well so far. I have hit some breaks in the tapes that require stopping and starting a new clip. Not that big a deal.

One problem... One tape I was able to import almost 60 minutes into one clip. However, towards the end of the clip, audio was far out of sync with the video. Capture is through Quicktime 7 with a "Device Native" setting. There are no settings to change for frame rate or audio rates.

Any ideas why A/V gets out of sync and how to fix it? For now, I am simply breaking things down into smaller chunks - 20 or so minutes at a time. It would still be nice to import longer clips.'

Also... Alchroma - are the clip info window you posted of similar length clips? I thought ProRes was supposed to be a larger file size than DV. Also your QT DV file and iMovie DV file seem to have the same settings, but very different sizes.

Alchroma

Level 7

23,857 points

Dec 9, 2014 10:55 PM in response to Joe M21

If you only need a 4:3 aspect ratio player a cheap DV camera will do the trick.

All things being equal in the second hand world the DSR 11 is a more robust machine.

The DSR 11 is one of the few machines that can playback LP mode from other devices with a good strike rate in my aging memory serves.

I'd jump for the 11 if you feel the deal and machine is OK. You may need a TV connected. It's got all the in/outputs.

Any ideas why A/V gets out of sync and how to fix it? For now, I am simply breaking things down into smaller chunks - 20 or so minutes at a time. It would still be nice to import longer clips.'

DV can have 12 or 16 bit audio set for recording and most cameras default to 12.

Most NLEs require 16 bit for best results.

Some can be set to match the audio rate of 12 or 16 bit, that's 32 or 48 kHz respectively.

My guess is the audio rate of some tapes are different causing the sync drift within FCP X.

The clips I posted are differing lengths.

I was mainly focusing on the dimensions for direct use in FCP X from the various discussed alternatives other than the

FCP X direct capture.

BTW: using my 700 deck capture was faultless directly into FCP X, surprised me. 🙂

Joe M21 Author

Level 1

85 points

Dec 10, 2014 4:58 AM in response to Alchroma

Thanks for the info. I though the DSR 11 might be a better choice.

Most of my footage is 4:3. Some was shot on a Sony TVR-8 in "widescreen" mode. This resulted in a 16:9 picture, but I don't know by what process that was achieved. Will that make a difference.

I realize that a cheap-o camera will provide the same image quality. I am more concerned about unit life (something built to last) and ability to read my tapes. I have been led to believe that some better units have more latitude with different mini-DV tapes (as you indicate with the DSR11 and LP recordings).

The vendor I am looking at has a 14 day money back guarantee. Anything I should look for when I receive the used unit? Any warning signs?

Russ H

Level 7

22,432 points

Dec 10, 2014 5:36 AM in response to Joe M21

If I can jump in with a quick comment: not sure that I agree that the cheapo machine will produce the same quality. Would think that better heads and mechanism would yield more accurate tape transport and and reduced chance of dropout and noise. Just an assumption cam't really test it.

Russ

Joe M21 Author

Level 1

85 points

Dec 10, 2014 8:26 AM in response to Russ H

Russ,

i think you have a good point. That thinking is what has me looking for a "better" player than a cheap (or my current) camera.

miniDV is s digital format. based on that, it shuld either "work" or not. Unlike, say, VHS where there could be levels of quality.

however, a better head, better quality components, etc. should led to better reliability on playback. Whether it is less dropouts, more forgiveness of borderline tape or just reading LP tape... It could all fit into the "better quality" heading. Another factor is that a better playback device should have a longer useful life. One would hope a deck designed for commercial use would have longer lasting components than one designed for consumer use. Considering the age of miniDV, lifespan is an important consideration in my opinion.

I can't test it either, but I agree your theory makes sense.

Joe M21 Author

Level 1

85 points

Dec 10, 2014 9:08 AM in response to Alchroma

Alchroma,

i did some checking on the DSR-11. Several things I have found claim it cannot play LP a tapes. Finally found an online manual and it confirms the 11 will not playback or record tapes in LP mode.

I don't -think- I have any LP tapes, but cannot be sure one or two didn't sneak in there. Seems like I am leaning towards the GV D900. Unless you or someone else has a better suggestion.

This project keeps getting more complicated.

Dec 10, 2014 12:05 PM in response to Joe M21

Joe M21

I am not in the same league as others on here , but here goes.

Regarding the problem you are having in using your Sony TRV 8.

You say that it has been used to produce some 100 tapes . The heads of your TRV 8 may benefit from a clean.

Firstly clean the heads with a Sony head cleaner tape.

If these tapes are from some years ago and you have mixed brands and the first tape is successful after cleaning then continue with the same brands.

Before moving on to the next brand of tapes clean again and so on.

It is not such a problem of late but years ago mixing brands of DV tape caused a problem because of the different types of lubrication used which gummed up the heads.

This may not be the cause of your problem , but felt compelled to chime in.

Alchroma

Level 7

23,857 points

Dec 10, 2014 9:23 PM in response to thesurreyfriends

That's a valid point you raise regarding tapes.

In the old days (daze) we religiously stuck to the same particular brand of tape due to the wet/dry lube issue.

I've had tape chatter issues and it's not pretty.

Joe M21 Author

Level 1

85 points

Dec 12, 2014 11:41 AM in response to thesurreyfriends

Excellent point on clean heads, and one that has crossed my mind. I ordered a head cleaning tape earlier this week and will see if that offers any additional improvement.

I also found a used Sony GV D900 which should arrive next week. As already mentioned, by TRV-8 seems to be on its way out.

Question on copying mini-DV tapes....

My understanding is that when copying through FW, it makes a digital copy with no generation quality loss. Now that I will have two Sony players (camera and D900) I am thinking about making a tape backup of my tape collection.

When I copy these tapes via FW, does the recording machine generate new timecode? Since I apparently have some timecode breaks on my originals, I am wondering if making a new copy will "fix" those breaks if playing the old tape straight through (by writing a new, unbroken timecode to the new tape.)

Is this the case?

Thanks,

Joe

Dec 12, 2014 12:25 PM in response to Joe M21

I have no personal experience of this to answer your question , but I do believe I have read something about what you are saying, so this may well be the case.

Hopefully some one else will be able to confirm one way or the other.

Hope you have success with the head cleaner.

It will probably have some benefit in any case if you do the tape backup you mention with the camera and D900.

Alchroma

Level 7

23,857 points

Dec 12, 2014 2:25 PM in response to Joe M21

Yes.

A copy will generate new timecode that will be contiguous.

Make sure the recording device is set to use 16 bit audio.

Joe M21 Author

Level 1

85 points

Dec 12, 2014 7:40 PM in response to Alchroma

That's good news. Thanks for the info. Looks like I have enough options to work around any borderline tapes. Now if there was only a way to do this all quicker than "realtime." Making backup tape copies, bringing clips into the computer from tape, burning those clips to m-disc... this is going to take a while.

problem with create archive from mini-DV tape