mmbridges

Q: Re-flashing iPhone 5 firmware

What prevents the Apple store, where I purchased my iPhone 5, from re-flashing firmware so that it is back to the state it was in when shipped from the factory which was a generic CDMA policy not associated with any carrier?

 

Is it a legal/policy barrier or is it a technological barrier?

iPhone 5, iOS 9.2.1

Posted on Jan 31, 2016 9:34 PM

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Q: Re-flashing iPhone 5 firmware

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  • by ManSinha,

    ManSinha ManSinha Jan 31, 2016 9:36 PM in response to mmbridges
    Level 6 (10,250 points)
    iPhone
    Jan 31, 2016 9:36 PM in response to mmbridges

    Why would you want the store to do that as opposed to using the restore function of iTunes?

  • by mmbridges,

    mmbridges mmbridges Feb 1, 2016 1:09 PM in response to ManSinha
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 1, 2016 1:09 PM in response to ManSinha

    Because according to the database that Apple apparently maintains, the phone is still "locked" to Sprint. Sprint has given me a MSL code and indicated that there are no obligations outstanding hence the reason they gave me the code. The words they use are "we have given you what is necessary to "unlock" the phone you just need to find out how to use the code and we can't help you there". My understanding is that the standard way to ReFlash a iPhone is through iTunes but that won't work unless some field in the apple database for my phone has an "unlocked" status indicated. So the wording of the cell carrier agreement describing the principles regarding "unlocking" phones does not define the term "unlock". I have seen the term "unlock" defined elsewhere to be equivalent to "removing the software that restricts the phone to be used on a particular carriers' network. It would seem to me reflashing the phone back to the original factory state effectively does this. So I was wondering if Apple is unable to do this for technical or legal reasons.

  • by KC7GNM,

    KC7GNM KC7GNM Feb 1, 2016 1:22 PM in response to mmbridges
    Level 4 (2,893 points)
    Feb 1, 2016 1:22 PM in response to mmbridges

    That is because sprint is the only one authorized to unlock the phone. Apple cannot re-flash the phone to another provider. You need to talk to Sprint to get it unlocked then restore using iTunes to unlock it. Apple will not do it period.

  • by mmbridges,

    mmbridges mmbridges Feb 1, 2016 5:23 PM in response to KC7GNM
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 1, 2016 5:23 PM in response to KC7GNM

    Thanks for the reply. I would not be asking Apple to flash the phone to another provider but instead i would be asking them to flash it to the original policy which in this case was a non-carrier associated CDMA policy. So in your opinion is Apple technically incapable of flashing a phone back to factory state or just legally prevented from doing so?

  • by deggie,

    deggie deggie Feb 1, 2016 5:31 PM in response to mmbridges
    Level 9 (54,563 points)
    iPhone
    Feb 1, 2016 5:31 PM in response to mmbridges

    There is no such thing as a CDMA lock or unlock. Lock status only applies to GSM phones. If you are trying to take your phone to Verizon or one of the Verizon MVNOs to use it is up to them as to whether they will accept your carry in phone. Currently Verizon only accepts the 6 series and later.

     

    iPhones do not use MSL codes whatsoever. Whoever you talked to at Sprint had no idea what they were talking about. If you went through the proper unlock procedure through Sprint and they approved the unlock they should have sent you instructions to unlock an iPhone. Since they didn't, you need to connect your iPhone to iTunes and restore it as a NEW iPhone (not from your backup). If Sprint properly did their part you will receive a message, "Congratulations, your iPhone is now unlocked.

  • by Lawrence Finch,

    Lawrence Finch Lawrence Finch Feb 1, 2016 5:39 PM in response to mmbridges
    Level 8 (37,992 points)
    Mac OS X
    Feb 1, 2016 5:39 PM in response to mmbridges

    mmbridges wrote:

     

    What prevents the Apple store, where I purchased my iPhone 5, from re-flashing firmware so that it is back to the state it was in when shipped from the factory which was a generic CDMA policy not associated with any carrier?

     

    Is it a legal/policy barrier or is it a technological barrier?

    There is no such thing as a generic CDMA policy. CDMA phones are all identical. What differs is the carriers that will register the CDMA phone on their network. Currently neither Sprint nor Verizon will accept a CDMA iPhone 5 that was registered with a different CDMA carrier.

     

    Your problem is not CDMA, it is the LTE that you need unlocked if you want to use the phone with GSM carriers. Only Sprint can do that. Yes, Apple maintains the master database of locked and unlocked phones, but the data in that database is owned by the carriers, not by Apple, and Apple would be violating contracts with the carriers if they overrode it. Anyway, Verizon will not accept a Sprint phone for the Verizon network. They WILL accept unlocked iPhone 6 and 6S series phones.

  • by LACAllen,

    LACAllen LACAllen Feb 1, 2016 6:43 PM in response to mmbridges
    Level 5 (4,884 points)
    iCloud
    Feb 1, 2016 6:43 PM in response to mmbridges

    Could this be the process they won't guide you to?

     

    There is no flash backwards. Just a full re-activation I guess.

     

    How to unlock your iPhone for use with another carrier - Apple Support

  • by mmbridges,

    mmbridges mmbridges Feb 1, 2016 8:44 PM in response to deggie
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 1, 2016 8:44 PM in response to deggie

    deggie wrote:

     

    ....

     

    iPhones do not use MSL codes whatsoever. Whoever you talked to at Sprint had no idea what they were talking about. If you went through the proper unlock procedure through Sprint and they approved the unlock they should have sent you instructions to unlock an iPhone. Since they didn't, you need to connect your iPhone to iTunes and restore it as a NEW iPhone (not from your backup). If Sprint properly did their part you will receive a message, "Congratulations, your iPhone is now unlocked.

     

    From what i have read on sprints website regarding their unlock policy, there is an unlock process for phones after 2/11/2015 called domestic SIM unlocking (DSU) and a different process for phones prior to 2/11/2015 called Master Subsidy Lock (MSL) unlocking. My iphone 5 fits into the latter category and Sprint's website explicitly states the iphone 5 does not support DSU.

     

    https://www.sprint.com/legal/unlocking_policy.html?ECID=vanity:unlock

     

    http://support.sprint.com/support/article/FAQs_about_unlocking_your_Sprint_devic e/7a3bf815-cfcd-4a56-925a-7a187d1c6637

     

    The Sprint rep verified that I am well past my two year contract and have no obligations that would disqualify me from having my phone unlocked. He verified the MSL code that was provided to me by a previous rep and said that code is what is needed to unlock my phone but he could provide no guidance on how that code is to be used.

     

    The line this rep was giving me seems to match that from others in the same boat. It seems Sprint is hiding behind this "we have given you what you need to have the phone unlocked" position to be able to claim they are honoring the CITA "Unlocking Commitment" but not telling me how to use the code to do it.

     

    How would you suggest I respond to Sprint?

  • by ManSinha,

    ManSinha ManSinha Feb 1, 2016 8:54 PM in response to mmbridges
    Level 6 (10,250 points)
    iPhone
    Feb 1, 2016 8:54 PM in response to mmbridges

    mmbridges wrote:

     

    How would you suggest I respond to Sprint?

    Unfortunately you are at a bit of a dead end - Sprint does hide behind handing out the MSL code which is not terribly useful for iPhones. You may be able to switch to a Sprint based MVNO such as Boost and get away using your phone - even if you sell it you will see that Sprint phones from prior to 2/15 have the lowest comparable value for exactly that reason

  • by mmbridges,

    mmbridges mmbridges Feb 1, 2016 9:29 PM in response to Lawrence Finch
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 1, 2016 9:29 PM in response to Lawrence Finch

    Lawrence Finch wrote:

     

    mmbridges wrote:

     

    What prevents the Apple store, where I purchased my iPhone 5, from re-flashing firmware so that it is back to the state it was in when shipped from the factory which was a generic CDMA policy not associated with any carrier?

     

    Is it a legal/policy barrier or is it a technological barrier?

    There is no such thing as a generic CDMA policy. CDMA phones are all identical. What differs is the carriers that will register the CDMA phone on their network. Currently neither Sprint nor Verizon will accept a CDMA iPhone 5 that was registered with a different CDMA carrier.

     

    Your problem is not CDMA, it is the LTE that you need unlocked if you want to use the phone with GSM carriers. Only Sprint can do that. Yes, Apple maintains the master database of locked and unlocked phones, but the data in that database is owned by the carriers, not by Apple, and Apple would be violating contracts with the carriers if they overrode it. Anyway, Verizon will not accept a Sprint phone for the Verizon network. They WILL accept unlocked iPhone 6 and 6S series phones.

    So here is a brief snippet of a chat I had with an Apple level 2 tech support rep named Derek:

     

    Derek: "The original policy for this phone wasn’t Verizon or Sprint actually. But it was locked to Sprint. They would’ve done that when the phone was registered to Sprint."


    Me: Who is the 'they' who did the locking to 'Sprint'? And what was my iphone 5's 'original policy'?

     

    Derek: Sprint. When you bought the phone, with a contract through Sprint, that would where it was agreed to have the phone locked. That’s what buying a phone through a contract would have done. The original is just a basic CDMA policy. But when it was activated, it would’ve been through Sprint.

     

    So Lawrence, when the phone comes from the Apple plant, would you agree there is nothing restricting its use on any CDMA carrier?

     

    If so then when my wife went to the apple store and asked that the phone be purchased under contract from Sprint as part of an upgrade (she was giving me an iphone 5 to replace my old windows mobile phone), i would suspect sometime after that point firmware was flashed that "locked" my phone to sprint. Is this correct?

     

    I am first inquiring about the Apples technical capability to reflash firmware onto the phone to put it in a state back to what it was when it came from the factory. I am simply asking if the apple engineers have the tools to flash my iphone 5's EEPROM back to the original factory firmware?

     

     

    Once I get an answer to that I can start processing what that means and ask some more questions.

     

    I think you have already stated that overiding the database entries would be a violation of their contracts withe carriers. But does flashing to the factory state firmware, if technically possible, also violate their contract with the carriers?

  • by LACAllen,

    LACAllen LACAllen Feb 1, 2016 9:56 PM in response to mmbridges
    Level 5 (4,884 points)
    iCloud
    Feb 1, 2016 9:56 PM in response to mmbridges

     

    I think you have already stated that overiding the database entries would be a violation of their contracts withe carriers. But does flashing to the factory state firmware, if technically possible, also violate their contract with the carriers?

     

    I would say this

     

    think you have already stated that overiding the database entries would be a violation of their contracts withe carriers.

     

    is the same as this

     

    But does flashing to the factory state firmware, if technically possible, also violate their contract with the carriers?

     

     

    The net result is the same... the device's carrier "lock" status is being changed by someone other the carrier. Based on that it may not matter if technically possible.

  • by Lawrence Finch,

    Lawrence Finch Lawrence Finch Feb 2, 2016 8:09 AM in response to mmbridges
    Level 8 (37,992 points)
    Mac OS X
    Feb 2, 2016 8:09 AM in response to mmbridges

    File a complaint with the FCC on their website fcc.gov. Send a copy of it to the CEO of Sprint.

  • by Lawrence Finch,

    Lawrence Finch Lawrence Finch Feb 2, 2016 8:24 AM in response to mmbridges
    Level 8 (37,992 points)
    Mac OS X
    Feb 2, 2016 8:24 AM in response to mmbridges

     

    So Lawrence, when the phone comes from the Apple plant, would you agree there is nothing restricting its use on any CDMA carrier?

     

    If so then when my wife went to the apple store and asked that the phone be purchased under contract from Sprint as part of an upgrade (she was giving me an iphone 5 to replace my old windows mobile phone), i would suspect sometime after that point firmware was flashed that "locked" my phone to sprint. Is this correct?

     

    Yes, and no. CDMA phones are not locked to a carrier. If the MEID of the phone is in the carrier's database then the phone is "locked" to that carrier. If the phone is not in the carrier's database then you cannot use the phone with that carrier. All carriers worked this way until about April of last year. Verizon then started accepting non-Verizon iPhone 6 series, and later iPhone 6S series that were not in their database. But not iPhone 5 series. Your iPhone 5 is a dual mode phone; it has 2 radios, a CDMA and a GSM/LTE. The GSM side is locked to Sprint. The CDMA is not, but there is no other carrier (meaning Verizon, the only other CDMA carrier in the US) who will allow it on their network. But the GSM is locked, and always has been if it was sold for use with Sprint. And only Sprint can unlock it. And Sprint is the only carrier who followed the letter of the FCC ruling that said that phones sold after a certain date must be unlocked by the carrier. All of the other carriers in the US will unlock any phone that is out of contract, but not Sprint. And, by the letter of the law, they don't have to.

  • by mmbridges,

    mmbridges mmbridges Feb 2, 2016 11:09 AM in response to LACAllen
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 2, 2016 11:09 AM in response to LACAllen

    LACAllen wrote:

     

     

    I think you have already stated that overiding the database entries would be a violation of their contracts withe carriers. But does flashing to the factory state firmware, if technically possible, also violate their contract with the carriers?

     

    I would say this

     

    think you have already stated that overiding the database entries would be a violation of their contracts withe carriers.

     

    is the same as this

     

    But does flashing to the factory state firmware, if technically possible, also violate their contract with the carriers?

     

     

    The net result is the same... the device's carrier "lock" status is being changed by someone other the carrier. Based on that it may not matter if technically possible.

    It may or may not matter indeed but the question still stands. I'll parse it to help me better understand what is technically feasible:

    1. Does Apple have the tools and is it physically possible to re-flash an iphone 5 back to its factory state?
    2. If 1.) is true is itunes the only way to do that or are there other tools that reflash iphone 5 firmware?
    3. If itunes is the only way to physically flash firmware then it would appear the database is the key and controls all. How exactly are database entries updated? Do carriers have direct access or must they send update request to apple for them to do?
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