How to properly upgrade Java

Barney-15E wrote:

As Apple has dropped all support for Java, the app developers should be bundling a runtime within their apps and not depend on OS X to supply the environment.

I agree completely. I just checked my home machine, which is in a bit more disarray as far as Java is concerned than the other one. The java_home tool is not a reliable means to find all installed JVMs:

/Users/jdaniel $ /usr/libexec/java_home

/Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines/1.6.0.jdk/Contents/Home

/Users/jdaniel $ /Library/Internet\ Plug-Ins/JavaAppletPlugin.plugin/Contents/Home/bin/java -version

java version "1.8.0_91"

Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_91-b14)

Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 25.91-b14, mixed mode)

I would have to manually set JAVA_HOME to the correct JVM in order to run modern Java apps on this machine. This may be different if I had installed the various Java versions in a different order. I have done tests where I had a different outcome.

java_home has never reported the Web Applet plug-ins. I don't imagine when it was developed there was a requirement for that.

The old Apple Java Preference Pane allowed you to reorder your installed JVMs and select the "default" JVM. None of those showed the web applet plugins, either.

If Oracle assumes apps will look for an Internet Plugin to find the JVM, I expect that to fail miserably.

Barney-15E wrote:

java_home has never reported the Web Applet plug-ins. I don't imagine when it was developed there was a requirement for that.

The old Apple Java Preference Pane allowed you to reorder your installed JVMs and select the "default" JVM. None of those showed the web applet plugins, either.

I remember the old Java Preference Pane. I don't remember how it interacted with web plugins or if web plugins had their own embedded Java versions back then.

If Oracle assumes apps will look for an Internet Plugin to find the JVM, I expect that to fail miserably.

I don't think Oracle has any more interest in supporting Java on OS X than Apple has. Oracle wants enterprise money and that means keeping everything in a web browser. Don't forget that Oracle is now one of the leading distributors of Mac adware. Not only does Oracle install adware with Java, they even use Java's horrible security and incessant updates as an opportunity to keep installing more adware with each update. Oracle does NOT want anyone running native Java apps on OS X because that would cut into their adware revenue.

Barney-15E wrote:

java_home has never reported the Web Applet plug-ins. I don't imagine when it was developed there was a requirement for that.

The old Apple Java Preference Pane allowed you to reorder your installed JVMs and select the "default" JVM. None of those showed the web applet plugins, either.

I remember the old Java Preference Pane. I don't remember how it interacted with web plugins or if web plugins had their own embedded Java versions back then.

If Oracle assumes apps will look for an Internet Plugin to find the JVM, I expect that to fail miserably.

I don't think Oracle has any more interest in supporting Java on OS X than Apple has. Oracle wants enterprise money and that means keeping everything in a web browser. Don't forget that Oracle is now one of the leading distributors of Mac adware. Not only does Oracle install adware with Java, they even use Java's horrible security and incessant updates as an opportunity to keep installing more adware with each update. Oracle does NOT want anyone running native Java apps on OS X because that would cut into their adware revenue.

Barney-15E wrote:

java_home has never reported the Web Applet plug-ins. I don't imagine when it was developed there was a requirement for that.

The old Apple Java Preference Pane allowed you to reorder your installed JVMs and select the "default" JVM. None of those showed the web applet plugins, either.

I remember the old Java Preference Pane. I don't remember how it interacted with web plugins or if web plugins had their own embedded Java versions back then.

If Oracle assumes apps will look for an Internet Plugin to find the JVM, I expect that to fail miserably.

I don't think Oracle has any more interest in supporting Java on OS X than Apple has. Oracle wants enterprise money and that means keeping everything in a web browser. Don't forget that Oracle is now one of the leading distributors of Mac adware. Not only does Oracle install adware with Java, they even use Java's horrible security and incessant updates as an opportunity to keep installing more adware with each update. Oracle does NOT want anyone running native Java apps on OS X because that would cut into their adware revenue.

etresoft wrote:

I don't think Oracle has any more interest in supporting Java on OS X than Apple has. Oracle wants enterprise money and that means keeping everything in a web browser. Don't forget that Oracle is now one of the leading distributors of Mac adware. Not only does Oracle install adware with Java, they even use Java's horrible security and incessant updates as an opportunity to keep installing more adware with each update. Oracle does NOT want anyone running native Java apps on OS X because that would cut into their adware revenue.

I have no idea what adware you are referring to. I update Java whenever there is an update and I have no adware on any of my Macs.

dialabrain wrote:

I have no idea what adware you are referring to. I update Java whenever there is an update and I have no adware on any of my Macs.

See this note: https://java.com/en/download/help/mac_install.xml

Note that step 5 says "Oracle has partnered with companies that offer various products. The installer may present you with the option to install these programs when you install Java" (emphasis added). This means that Oracle is using standard adware installer techniques. They scan your "footprint" to determine if you are a likely chumpcustomer. Given what I've seen of your posts, I suspect that you aren't 🙂. But you have to be careful with this when recommending installers, especially anything that doesn't use Apple's installer packages. You install something and it will work perfectly. Then you recommend it to someone else. They download the exact same installer and they get adware. You try again to reproduce and you still won't be able to get it to install adware. This has happened to me.

After you install Java, even if you are attentive enough to turn off the adware install, you have to go to System Preferences > Java > Advanced and scroll to the bottom to turn on a double-negative option to not install adware in the future.

You may have already enabled that option. You might also be someone that the adware network isn't interested in. But to make a long story short, that is the adware I am referring to.

FWIW, the only issue I see is the mention of changing of your home page to Yahoo along with the search engine which can be disabled by unchecking it. I don't consider that adware. I don't see it as any different than Safari telling me it's not set as my default browser and do I want to change it. Or Chrome's, or Firefox's. I don't consider those adware either.

I have Google.com set as the home page on all my Macs. My g/f happens to prefer the look of Yahoo's home page so that's what her home page is set to but uses Google's search engine.

That's just a screenshot. It is not a contract specifying what software will be installed. Maybe it is an ask.com extension one day (http://www.thesafemac.com/java-now-installing-adware/). Maybe it is Yahoo another day. All that Oracle has promised is "companies" offering "various products" or "offers".

If someone downloads Chrome or Firefox, or runs Safari, then their is a good chance they do want to run that browser and keep running it. Adware doesn't work that way. With adware, you download a backup tool, "clean up" utility, Java, whatever. And then it changes your browser, without asking, and will actively fight any attempts to remove it. Adware wouldn't give your g/f the option to pick Yahoo as a home page and Google as search. It would set its own home page and search page, inject ads into all other pages, and install yet more adware. I doubt your g/f would prefer that.

I've never seen anything but the Yahoo choice. I forgot all about the "suppress" setting in the advanced Tab so thanks for that. I've just been disabling the Yahoo offer each time.

I know how adware works. What I don't know is if I didn't disable the Yahoo offer if it would be difficult to switch back. If that's what happens if you don't uncheck the Yahoo offer I would consider that a form of adware.

dialabrain wrote:

I've never seen anything but the Yahoo choice.

But that is what I was talking about above. With adware, you can't use your own experience as a guide. Just because you've never seen anything but the Yahoo choice doesn't mean the same is true for anyone else. It also doesn't mean that would be true for anyone tomorrow. If they said something like "We've partnered with Yahoo! to give you a great internet start page with all the latest news and shopping deals!" then I would accept that as being restricted to Yahoo. Without that kind of guarantee, Oracle could install anything. And the way adware works, no one ever takes responsibility for anything. It is always an "affiliate problem".

I consider any kind of side effect involving "offers" from "partners" to be adware. Recent strains of adware are indistinguishable from true malware. It is a slippery-slope.