Verizon FIOS Quantum Gateway Router and Apple Time Capsule / Airport Express

Question

Level 1

4 points

Verizon FIOS Quantum Gateway Router and Apple Time Capsule / Airport Express

Verizon FIOS Quantum Gateway Router and Apple Time Capsule / Airport Express

I have seen many threads on this topic – what is the best way to use Apple Time Capsule / Apple Express (TC / AE) and Verizon FIOS Quantum Gateway (QG) router?

First let me explain my setup. I have Verizon FIOS, with a Verizon Quantum Gateway Router, connected to the ONT via Ethernet. I have the 1 GB internet plan, plus FIOS TV. I don’t use Verizon Telephone services, but instead I use Vonage for telephone.

I have a basement, main floor and upstairs. I have signal strength issues with having one WiFi router on the main floor sending signals to the basement and upstairs.

We are an Apple heavy household – MacBooks, Apple TVs, iPhones, iPads, Mac Mini, Apple Watch, etc. I have an Apple Time Capsule on the main floor, I have an Apple Time Capsule upstairs extending the WiFi network, and I have an Apple Express in the basement extending the WiFi network. I have found that Apple devices seem to work better with Apple TC / AE.

I also have lots of other non-Apple devices and appliances. I probably have close to 50 networked devices in total.

Note: I use the Time Capsules for storage and Time Machine. This is not factored in to any of the configurations, as they continue to work in all options. Same for my Vonage device.

I am not going to cover detailed how to steps, but more an overview of the configurations I have tried.

I have tested these various setups:

1) Set the Verizon QG router as primary router with NAT and DHCP, and set the Apple TC / AE in bridge mode (no second NAT). Disable the WiFi in the Verizon QG router, and enable the WiFi in the Apple TC / AE (create and extend the Apple WiFi network).

This will allow you to use the Apple WiFi and use TC / AE to extend the Apple WiFi.

This will allow you to use the Verizon QG router Ethernet switch for other devices, as well as connect additional devices to the TC / AE, or add additional Ethernet switches to the network. Basically, one big network from the Verizon QG router.

This will allow the MOCA / STB / TV menu, DVR and guides to function as normal.

This will allow Verizon to properly support and troubleshoot your network, TV and Verizon QG router.

This in theory is just as fast as any other option.

Note: You can keep the WiFi enabled in the Verizon QG router, as well as in the Apple TC / AE. It’s just that you cannot use Apple devices to extend Verizon QG router WiFi.

2) Set the Verizon QG router as primary router with NAT, DHCP and optional WiFI, and set the Apple TC / AE also as a secondary router with NAT, DHCP and WiFi resulting in a double NAT. Set a static IP or static lease for the Apple TC / AE, and set that static IP to the DMZ of the Verizon QG router. This sends all traffic in/out from the Verizon QG router to the DMZ which is the Apple TC / AE.

This requires that the Verizon QG router have a separate TCP/IP network than the Apple TC / AE devices.

You use the DHCP and NAT from the Apple TC/ AE. This allows you to manage and control you Apple TC / AE network independent of the Verizon QC router.

You can maintain two different Wi-Fi networks if wanted.

In theory, there is a performance degradation of using double NAT.

The Verizon router speed tests (https://www.verizon.com/SpeedTest/instantinternet.aspx) do not function correctly if the Verizon QG router it setup with a DMZ. Also, Verizon cannot properly troubleshoot your network / Verizon QG router with DMZ enabled.

This will allow the MOCA / STB / TV menu, DVR and guides to function as normal.

3) If you have Ethernet internet connection from the Verizon ONT, you connect directly to the Apple TC / AE, set the Apple TC / AE as the primary router for NAT, DHCP and WiFi. If you don’t have Verizon FIOS TV or Telephone Service, you can eliminate the Verizon QG router altogether.

This results in you have an Apple TC / AE only NAT, DHCP and WiFi network.

This allows you to use Apple TC / AE to extend your network.

This in theory is just as fast as any other option, maybe fastest.

This results in limited remote support from Verizon support as they rely on talking to the Verizon QG router for diagnostics.

4) If you have Ethernet internet connection from the Verizon ONT, you connect directly to the Apple TC /AE, set the Apple TC / AE as the primary router for NAT, DHCP and WiFi, and place the Verizon QG router behind the Apple TC / AE devices in a double NAT. Basically, the opposite of #2 above. This still allows for FIOS TV and Telephone, but you use the Apple TC / AE for NAT, DHCP, WiFi, and allows you to use Apple TC / AE to extend your network.

This again requires two different networks, assignment of a static IP or a static lease for the Verizon QG router, and entering that into the Apple TC / AE DMZ.

This in theory is just as fast as any other option, maybe fastest.

Which is best? This may be a matter of opinion depending on the end state goal. Speed? Ease of use? Supportability? Apple purist?

Personally, I think option #1 is the best because it’s the simplest. It provides full Verizon supportability and functionality, as well as allows you to use all the Apple TC / AE capabilities. Your Apple devices are simple pass-through.

The rest of the options rely on above average networking knowledge and skills, and the benefits of these configurations are not worth that added complexity, and loss of Verizon supportability. It was fun figuring them out, setting them up, conducting speed tests, trying and testing … that resulted in a certain satisfaction of accomplishment, but for average home use … option #1 is the cleanest and simplest.

Airport Express-OTHER

Posted on Dec 30, 2017 12:44 PM

Reply

Answer 1

Dec 30, 2017 1:17 PM in response to riggor9999

Agree..

option #1 is the cleanest and simplest.

The addition of some ethernet.. just a single run from basement to ground to upper floor would allow a far superior wireless setup. Wireless repeaters (what apple call extend) immediately kills half the speed capability of wireless.

If option #1 works for you.. great.

That would always be first choice.. at least to give it a go.

The Verizon router is probably also a more recent model with better WAN to LAN throughput. The Apple routers cannot get more than around 450Mbps WAN to LAN so on gigabit connection you will lose some of the speed (on the very few sites that can give speeds greater than 450Mbps.. for a person on slow ADSL this appears incredibly minor first world issue)

If you run that setup and it actually has issues.. ie the airports disappear from the Macs in particular after a few days.. internet still works but Time Machine for example fails.. then you do need a more complicated setup if you want things to be reliable.

There is another option.. use main airport as DHCP server.. but no NAT.

This is pretty simple to setup.. at least to me.. and with the amount of configuring you have done.. I would say you will have no issues.

See for example this discussion.

No DNS error, Airport roaming network

I am in much the same boat.. forced to use a different main router.. in this case the airport do not work at all as the main router due to PPPOE issues.

But bridge mode causes continual issues on clients.. like daily forgetting the location of the Time Capsule.. so moving some of the main router DHCP range to the TC has worked extremely well. mdns used by apple is much much happier.. and the airport contains a bonjour sleep proxy which helps keep items that sleep connected and not constantly changing IP.

There is no NAT.. this is true router.. so all clients are fully accessible across the network, no matter whether connected to main router or the airports.. although I do note that using the correct domain name (local) in the main router also helps. (I am not sure of the WAN to LAN throughput without NAT.. since it is routing but in a very simple way.. it would be worth checking if you want absolutely max speed on a gigabit wired Mac.. this is irrelevant for wireless clients as they will never achieve close to WAN to LAN or LAN to WAN limitation).

So the above is good way around issues.. if they arise. After you have run option 1 for a while.

If you need specific info just ask..

Reply

Answer 2

Bob Timmons

Level 10

186,770 points

Dec 30, 2017 1:16 PM in response to riggor9999

Option 1 is probably the simplest and cleanest. But.....and this is a big BUT for some users......Apple does not officially support the AirPort Time Capsule in this type of setup.

So, things will be fine.....if they work. If they don't....there will be no help from Apple Support when a user calls. So, that might be an important detail to mention for users who may require support from Apple.

You forgot to mention the DHCP Only option on the AirPort Time Capsule. This allows the AirPort Time Capsule to provide DHCP service for devices on the network.....while staying on the same subnet as the Verizon router....while avoiding the potential problems of Double NAT. And....this type of setup will be supported by Apple if you have difficulties. Simply assign a Static IP to the AirPort Time Capsule and set up the Time Capsule to provide the desired range of IP addresses.

For example, the Verizon router might handle 192.168.1.2 through 192.168.1.20. Assign a Static IP of 192.168.1.25 to the Time Capsule and have it provide IP addresses in the range of 192.168.1.26 through 192.168.1.100.

Reply

Answer 3

riggor9999 Author

Level 1

4 points

Dec 30, 2017 2:42 PM in response to LaPastenague

I have been running option 1 for a year now - no issues - but I always felt I could improve things. I tried over that six months all the other various options and I found that #1 was the cleanest. All the added complexity was not worth it. I will say that Verizon speed tests when I had the MacMini hard wired to Time Capsule, and Time Capsule directly to Internet was faster than when I connect my MacMini directly to the Verizon router directly to the internet.

I have never had any DHCP, NAT or Time Capsule issues in option #1.

BTW - running ethernet upstairs and downstairs are not really an option due to the nature of the construction of the house. In my old house I had ethernet in every room :-(

Reply

Answer 4

Bob Timmons

Level 10

186,770 points

Dec 30, 2017 3:20 PM in response to riggor9999

Apple specifically will not help users who have installed the AirPort Time Capsule in Bridge Mode with a third party router. The user will be told that he needs to reconfigure the Time Capsule to operate as a router, and devices must then connect to the Time Capsule.

No one is disputing that your Option 1 is the simplest setup. Great if it works. Not so great if a user is having difficulty and then finds out that his setup is not supported......(Apple will not help unless you do it their way).

My neighbor had constant problems with the Time Capsule getting "lost" on the network when he tried to set it up in Bridge Mode with a new mesh network that he purchased. We see similar reports on the forum with other systems.

Reply

Answer 5

riggor9999 Author

Level 1

4 points

Dec 30, 2017 7:29 PM in response to LaPastenague

The Verizon Router Speed Test consistently show 950 Mbps download / 950 Mbps upload....

I then conducted the following Verizon Device Speed Tests 5 times each. The results were about the same on average for all tests / all configs / etc.

1) MacMini to Verizon router to ONT

2) MacMini directly to ONT / no router

3) MacMini to Apple Time Capsule to ONT

4) MacMini to Apple Time Capsule as DMZ to Verizon router to ONT

5) Lenovo Thinkpad to ethernet switch to Verizon Router to ONT

Each test - on average produced 500 ~ 600 Mbps download, 600 ~ 700 Mbps upload

Some of the tests had occasionally high and low for the uploads - as high as 900 Mbps, and as low as 300 Mbps ... but on average the uploads were still in the 600 ~ 700 Mbps range.

The MacMini is Sierra 10.13.2, Late 2012 model, 2.5 GHz core i5, 16 GB RAM

The Lenovo Thinkpad is Windows 10, 2.6 GHz core i7, 16 GB RAM

Conclusion ... The 1 GB Mbps speeds can be seen at router / ONT back to Verizon, but a PC or Mac will not see those speeds - even directly connected to the ONT without any NAT / Firewall router.

The results may not be 100% scientific, but I thinks shows a good representation of various tests with various configs.

Reply

Answer 6

Dec 30, 2017 5:08 PM in response to riggor9999

Yeah.. well if it has run for a year.. and no issues.. then you have no problems.

What we are suggesting with Static IP and using DHCP is for when people do have connection issues.. but it depends on loads of factors in the network. For you.. luck prevailed.. !!

There is no better setup.. although I would be interested if the mini plugged directly to the ONT gives you better speed than using any router... in which case neither is rated correctly to your gigabit internet.. if it makes little difference then gigabit is a myth more than reality and you should not worry about it.

Reply

Answer 7

riggor9999 Author

Level 1

4 points

Dec 30, 2017 6:35 PM in response to Bob Timmons

Very interesting. I have had zero issues in any of the configurations I tired. I expect there may be others I did not try.

I am not taking any of the comments as criticisms, I guess I am lucky that things are working as expected. The ideas around static IPs, and separating NATs make sense, but may be too complicated for some.

Reply

Answer 8

riggor9999 Author

Level 1

4 points

Dec 30, 2017 6:37 PM in response to LaPastenague

Agreed - I may be lucky but all the configs I tried worked as expected. Other may have encountered issues - but I had zero.

I will try connecting the MacMini directly to the ONT had post my findings.

Reply

Answer 9

riggor9999 Author

Level 1

4 points

Dec 30, 2017 2:48 PM in response to Bob Timmons

Since the Time Capsule is in bridge mode - there is no double NAT. I understand the issues surrounding double NAT. Thats why I tried giving the TC a static address and putting in the DMZ of the Verizon router. Then I had a different network for the Time Capsule network.

I have not had any issues at all under option 1. All my devices back up via Time Machine without issues, I can access the data on both Time Capsules, and all the TC and AE are acting as access points.

What specifically does Apple not support?

Reply