Demo info + Songwriters / Producer relationships.......

Hi.

To point 1:

Can´t say much , but I know that it is good for a Demo, to put a short parts of songs on it. Not whole songs. It is good to put maybe 30 sec of your best 3 Songs together in the first track. And after that, the wohle 3. If the listener likes one, he can listen to the whole song. But noone would go through every 10 Songs. So, take the best parts of your song.

To point 3:

If it´s just mixing the Producer has no rights for the songs. But if he plays a piano to the bridge, or something like that, he will have rights, if he is straight. It depends how much he will work creativly. It´s better to check this before you chose your producer.

Good luck

Martin

"it’s who you know, not what you know" throughout this entire thread – then I’ll give up now!

well it is true but don't give up for crying-out loud!!

if you are based in the UK you can do no better than makesure you sign up with the PRS-MCPS and the british academy. both of these organizations have fantastic magazines that deal all of the subjects you brought up. they are written by interviewing top R&D and artists in this country and a lot of the focus is on everything you have been talking about.

they also run seminars on a regular basis where you can hear top people in the industry talk about their experiences and you can generally meet them as well.

although i don't work in the 'songwriting' side of the industry there are a few parallels with where i come from which might be alient.

your point number 1)

no question that the most important thing is a really strong idea. think of all the dodgy eighties music that is still memorable because the tune was catchy. literally focus on the 'hookiest' idea you can something that is simply impossible not to find attractive. we in film/tv do this as well for all the tricks we might use as well - we are looking for a killer idea - often in our case no more than a four or five notes long. people if they are really generous will listen to about 30 seconds of your music if they don't know you - you should try to make that your window of opportunity, and then consider yourself lucky that anyone has even bothered to listen to it. but have confidence - if you get that opportunity and you have your 'hookiest' most memorable stuff in it, it will be hard to ignore you.

sometimes the interest and 'hook' of a song comes from the clever way it is produced. think of sigur ross - hippolola. that still is very hooky but its presentation is certainly part of it. its the only example i can think of to make this point just at the moment - others may think of better ones. just imagine the tune and the piano riffed just knocked out on a piano. nice, but it would take a producer with imagination to see its potential and make it into what it is.

2) you can get people to create demos of your songs for not a lot of money. the magazines i alluded to are full of adverts for services of exactly this kind. shop around and ask to hear demos from them. maybe you will find a talented budding producer with a similar taste that can take your ideas further.

3) to much nitty and gritty for meto answer authoritatively. but i most definitely believe you can develop a relationship over email. i deliver at least 90% of what i do these days to ftp servers over the internet.

i really recommend getting a hold of those PRS-MCPS magazines. like i said they are brimful of ideas for people in your situation.

Hi Rachel, welcome to the rat's nest.
"high quality" is a term often used in this industry, another is, "sounds great, let's do lunch...."
today's market is depressed and highly competitive. your demos will have to be "release quality" just to be in the race.
it will serve you to give the best renditions of your song's you can.
lyric's have to be heard and a so important.
"high quality" is really very subjective. My mum would call Bing Crosby's "White Xmas" a high quality recording.......
Live musicians (as opposed to dead ones) will put more focussed energy into a track if you are lucky enough to choose the right ones for your music.
If you already know a producer, he/she might not need a "finished demo".
just the vox and chords might do. (a good song should be able to be performed with minimal backing to good effect).

This industry has a lot to do with peoples' subjective perception.
No two people will hear the same thing exactly the same way.
I'm sure others here will chime in soon, so, best of luck.

"There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend, those with showbiz lawyers, and those without." Eli Wallach, at 96yrs.

Hi Rachel,

The real question you should be asking is one you should be asking to yourself.
What is it that your looking to do exactly?

The idea of the "demo" is pretty much on the way out.
The tools and resources to produce release quality material is now at the consumer level. The industry knows this and thus has made it more competitive and more exciting.

For example;

Record labels are no longer looking for ripe talent to mold and build up. "Development" deals are pretty much history. Labels are looking for artists who are ALREADY sellings records and going on the road themselves. It is relatively inexpensive to record and release a record independently. So take advantage of this.

example 2

The tv/film industry.
This is also true for licensing deals.
The demos for producing music for film/tv have to be (as mentioned above) "broadcast ready". This way the producers can simply pull the track they like, arrange the deal with you and get on with it rather than wait around for the artist to re-record the track, mix, master, etc...

Hope that helps.
Good luck!

Rachel.

All good advice so far...

Let me just add to what Rohan said about finding a "budding producer". Just as bad as you're wanting to break into the biz from the song-writing side, there are tons of folks wanting to break into the producing side.

Partnering with someone like this would not only benefit you from the production side, but if you have someone with good ears, they can add another perspective to your song, which can only help in the long run.

I started my producing career here in Nashville doing this exact thing. A few songwriters who had publishing deals found out about me, I worked my tail off on their song demos, this led to more and more work from other writers and publishers, and eventually, based on the quality of the demos, production work followed.

As a producer, I personally prefer to hear a stripped down version of the song.

BUT... I am probably in the minority. I can assure you, I made a good living as a demo producer in my early days, because, at least here in Nashville, the song plugging market was (and still is) very competitive. The demos had to sound like finished masters.

When you consider that the top producers get pitched hundreds, and hundreds, even thousands of songs for artists they are producing, your demo needs to stand out. I also know for a fact, again, at least here in Nashville, that the top producers are so busy, they don't have time to "imagine" what the song could sound like. It needs to be spoon fed to them. This way, they can go to the tracking session, and tell the studio musicians to "cop the demo".

I can't tell you how many songs have shown up on the country charts, as well as the contemporary Christian charts, in the years past, that I had done the publishing demo to, and my demo was ripped off, almost verbatim!

I also had, early on in my demo producing days, a situation, where I had done a pop demo for as writer who had a contemporary Christian publishing deal. When the publisher was pitching songs to an artist and his producer, the publisher stopped on the wrong track (he was using a DAT tape, remember those?). Anyhow, he hit play, and this pop song that I had done the demo for started playing. Within seconds, the publisher stopped the tape, apologizing that he had cued the wrong song. The producer and artist both were like "no, no.. let it play". They loved the song so much, that they asked the writer to re-write the lyric, so that it could go on his Christian record( The producer was a heavy weight, so they happily agreed... ).

The publisher called me later to tell me that the quality of that demo, just within the first few seconds of play, had grabbed both the artists and the producers attention. A year later, that song went number one on the Christian charts, and I was actually invited to the number one party that was held. A rarity, I assure you... but it was nice to be recognized.

All that to say, based on what I have seen from within the trenches of the music business, the better the quality of the demo, the more opportunity the song might have to be heard by the ears who can do something with it.

It should also go without saying though, that the song has to be there first. Without a great melody, and a great lyric, it's an uphill battle for the producer. A great song will make an even greater demo, but a great demo won't make a great song.

To put it in a nutshell - songwriter writing commercial songs who doesn't know what to do with them but recognises they are far from ready to be listened to!

To echo some of the advice you've had so far, find a collaborator. As you already know your strengths and weaknesses, you're part way there. Finding someone who's recording and arranging skills are more developed than your own, and trading off your (hopefully) great ideas for hooks and melody could be the ideal partnership. There are all sorts of resources in the U.K. some of which Rohan mentioned above. Advertise! There are already many internet opportunities such as Myspace - if you haven't already, create pages on many of these services and explain exactly what you're looking for. Building your network of contacts is very important.

Yes..you have to pay a fee per track but say I took this route for example - I would need a good demo.

I would be very wary of any services that charge to get you to companies in the music business. I'm not saying that they've never worked but having been involved in this business on the 'other side of the fence' these submissions are not viewed with any great enthusiasm or interest.

Good luck!

think of sigur ross - hippolola

Man, apart from the fact it's hideously over-exposed and used on just about every UK TV program or trailer over here in Britain, but I love that track.

It's simple, but the arrangement and recording is exquisite and so compelling...

If you are more a songwriter and less a producer, collaboration is a good way to go. Otherwise, you can simply pay a demo house to make your demo from a guitar/piano & vocal work tape. You can also see if you can find a producer willing to work with you. You have strengths (I presume) and they will have strengths. See if you can find a producer who needs your strengths.

You also have to consider WHICH artists are open to songs written by others and write with that in mind. A lot of artists do their own writing and pick their own co-writers (or the producer often is involved in co-writing). You won't get a song to Britney or Christina unless you know their manager, lawyer or publisher.

Getting a publishing deal is not hard if you write decent material and can get it demoed properly, but publishers have to keep in mind the style of music they can get placed. There should be a UK version of a list of licensed publishers like here in the states. See which ones are open to "unsolicited material" and try to establish a relationship with them.

I also feel that the concept of a guitar/vocal or piano/vocal demo only applies nowdays to country music - and only for pitching to SOME publishers, never to an artist or artist's producer. Some publishers will still insist on a fully pro live-musician demo. They will want to hear something very close to radio-ready and tailored for the artist they're pitching to. It is extremely competitive out there. Some demos are done differently depending on who will hear it (male or female vocal, instrumentation, etc). A friend of mine in Nashville sent me a CD full of Faith Hill "rejects" that didn't make it onto her most recent CD. They were all nearly ready for the radio and they were done in a style similar to her last CD.

You're right that a really good song can be heard with a simple demo. However, you're still competing at the publisher level with established songwriters who make pro-quality demos. Your competition is likely to be the last songwriter who wrote a hit for the artist. A producer may be more inclined to hear something "rougher" and provide input.

Just my $0.02.


Dual 2.5Ghz 2004; 2.5GB RAM Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Hi Jim, David and Rohan.

Thanks for the tips! The wisdom you three share here on a regular basis is incredible and invaluable.

I was curious if the OP would benefit from something like TAXI?

http://taxi.com/

I was a member for a while, but I was unable to get anything done to send to them for a multitude of reasons (Murphy's law). If the OP has some songs done, do you think that would be a decent investment?

X

Taxi will almost always want great-sounding demos. It's pretty rare to see any listings willing to accept rough demos or work tapes. Most are looking for radio-ready stuff; and those that aren't, will be sent demo submissions done professionally. Taxi can work if you feel you can compete with the established songwriting/composer community, or want tips on how to get to that level. It's a bit pricey for just learning, though.

I was also a member, and will probably join back up as soon as I get a few more tunes in the can. I had several forwards, but no deals - yet. The deals I've gotten have been through making connections myself.


Dual 2.5Ghz 2004; 2.5GB RAM Mac OS X (10.4.8)

ironically, the music that I got on tv and film was all done on an inferior digital 8 track....then i got PT 5.1 and made some investment and some of those songs got used as well. it seems luck, timing and good songwriting are of paramount importance. I've been learning logic as much as possible but in my soul i know it comes down to getting a break..sending material out. finishing songs....not getting hung up on the "best" production. of course it never hurts to have the best sound possible. good luck to us all.

and you were right to ask here... you must have gotten soemthing of a heads up. but yeah these organizations can really help you with the thing you need more than anything else including talent....contacts. just by rocking up to the seminars and getting to know people and getting your stuff around liottle opportunities can open up ...which could lead to bigger opportunities...etc etc.

and you put plenty of tracks on your demo reel. its just the 1st one has to really stand for what you are. think from the plugee's position. this demo is number 359 for the morning, only 4067 to go. how long do you think they are going to spend listening to it with any concentration? do what you do in 30 seconds - get in a hook and take it from there. it has to be killer - absolutely killer. it has to stand out as something that make anyones hair stand on end and sit up and say 'what is this?'. it has to absolutely stand up against the very best that is out there. taking that approach is exacting, demanding and expects the highest possible standard from your song writing and production values if you can get them. which is exactly how you should be going about it at all times anyway. plenty of second rate stuff out there already, why add more?

what i am saying is grab them by the short and curlies and grab them hard grab them early. if you get their interest they will listen to the rest of your offerings.