no Db minor - why?

jord, no it doesn't.

Dminor is quite a bright minor, especially as Dorian.

Really, and you believe in the tooth fairy as well?

to all, Db minor and Fb major are possible IF equal temp is not used.
theoratically there is a difference.
string sections and trombones could manage them, as they can JUSTLY INTONE their notes.
really, there is so little difference practically.

Don't listen to any of these guys. They are all smoking in the key of "J". No sharps, 11 flats, three double flats, a half moon, and a couple of "Home again, Home again, Jiggety Jig"'s !

les, it's comments like yours that sets music back a coupla hundred years.
unless you have real insight regarding such things, don't post.

to all, Db minor and Fb major are possible IF equal
temp is not used.

This is about "spelling", not "tuning".

<Its not my piece. Its a transcription Kenny Garret playing John coltrane's equinox. It is in concert Db minor and when it transposes to Eb saxophone the key is Bb minor (5 flats not that uncommon). what i needed was to get Bb minor to show up in the score editor when set to alto sax. If i used concert C# minor then it would transpose to A# minor on sax.>

Hi Silvertones

I trying to do the math here and if there are five flats (BEADG) that would put you in the key of Db Major not Db minor. Bb minor is the relative minor to Db Major . So if you set the score to Db Major, you are playing in Bb minor. I’m not a score expert but I think Db Major would probably be a legitimate key for logics score editor to display. You guys out there correct me if I’m wrong.

Dave R

You are absolute correct but we can still be friends, can’t we?

Best Regards

Les

Yes Les, Db's legit,and certain contradictions will occur with transposing instruments like the sax family.

and Yes, logics a little inadequate with this sort of thing. (only sharps in the edit list?)

Yes Les, we're still buddies.

Hey Les,

obviously, you have never worked with, written for, arranged for or leave alone orchestrated for transposing instruments.

You did not understand a word of Silvertones post.

We are all friends here, yes, but I have to side with DR9: refrain from posting, if you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Cheers and Peace,
sonther

Just finished digging around some more, including piano scores I did not touch in ages. As already suggested by Mitch, it seems like Franz Liszt's approach is the best idea to work from, with transposing instruments, in this key signature.

Your saxophone players will love you for avoiding A# minor.

Finale (guess) and Sibelius won't do what you want either, unless you go into some serious editing.

Best,
sonther

Dave R

Thanx for the reply. I have a lot of respect for your opinion. I wasn’t aware that Logic didn’t let you score in the flat keys. That does seem a little inadequate. I program mainly in the matrix but just last night I downloaded the order form for Johannes Prischls Logic Notation guide and was getting ready to invest some time in learning how to work in the score window. However if Logic won’t do flat keys perhaps I should keep transposing by hand or look at getting that software that IS and William Levine were discussing that allows one to convert over to Finale or Sibelius . But I still probably need to learn the score window just to do the convert.

Sonther

You are still my hero so let me try to redeem myself? The Eb Alto Sax sounds a Major 6th lower that its written. Silvertone was wanting five flats to show up in the score window so he can play the Eb alto sax in Bb minor (transposed). Five flats has to be Db Major/Bb minor. This would put the concert pitch in Bb Major/G minor. I think Silvertone maybe confusing the concert pitch but he was very clear on the five flats.

Best regards

Les

DR9 wrote: and Yes, logics a little inadequate with this sort of thing. (only sharps in the edit list?)

If you're talking about the event editor, I think there's a semi-rational explanation for this. Unlike the score editor which shows musically interpreted MIDI data, the event editor shows "raw" MIDI data. And according to the Geneva Conventions... Sorry... According to the conventions of the MIDI protocol, white keys are named with a letter from A - G, black keys named with a letter + "#", never "b".

Furthermore (you knew it wouldn't be that short and sweet now, didn't you?) when manipulating note data using Transform sets, or environment Transformers, their display of a note pitch does not conform to the key of the piece, let alone to the tranposition of a part in a Score Style. Since MIDI note names are absolute, and these things are used to manipulate MIDI data, I find it understandable that the event editor and the other features I mentioned don't alter the displayed note names based on the key of the piece.

Having said that, I think it would be useful to have an option to display note names in the event and matrix editors (as well as yellow "help" tags) which correspond to the names of notes as displayed in the score editor. So if an E was displayed in the score, you'd see "E" in the event editor. But if that E is spelled enharmonically as an Fb or a D## in the score, that particular E would be displayed as such in the event editor while other E's were displayed as "E". I can see how that would be helpful.

-=iS=-

Sorry Les, edit list = "event (list) editor".
you can do flat keys!!!!!
a tip: unless you are going to publish your score (or have it performed) stay in concert pitch for transposing instruments - like saxes - while working.
this is very true if you are a student.
in fact, a lot of "modern serious music" doesn't have transposed parts, particularly serial works (eg Schoenberg).
in fact, modern stuff modulates so much that even keys are not used all the time.

G'day, iS, thanks for the clarification as to MIDI standards.
Interestingly, Rolands' MC range of sequencers back in the day, did give you a choice of # and/or b's in the Edit list.
one small eg, if i may: a scale i like to use sometimes which i call the "Overtone" mode is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 8. in "C" it's C D E F# G A Bb C.
all i wish is that logic would show me that in the event list. in this context A# would be "wrong".

Les, studying orch tech from books is great but please, do yourself a favor and get a coupla pocket scores by 20th century composers like Stravinsky, Bartok, etc. Studying these will get you up to speed more quickly.
Any legit orch tech queries you have can be answered here by Mr Schwartz, Rohan S, and hopefully, myself. i also think sonther is into this as well?
Text Books are just that. You can benefit more by asking questions to experienced orchestrators directly, so feel free.