24P (Standard) Help, Conflicting information!

Just when I seem to be able to wrap my head on understanding 24p, 24pa, cadence and pulldown, someone or something, from somewhere seems to throw a wrench in the processes, shattering my confidence in editing in a 24p world.

So here goes.

I am editing a project that was completely shot in 24p, that is 24p standard, not advanced pulldown.

I just want to nail down what sequence settings to use.
And how to deal with 24p standard.

I am a frequent poster at dvxuser.com and on one forum a user states that all 24p or 24pa footage should be edited on a 24p timeline unless you will be mixing in 30i footage. Which I will not be doing.

here is what I referenced
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...n+e xplain%5C

[quote=David Jimerson]

The only time you should ever edit 24p footage on a 29.97 timeline is if you have 29.97 footage you want to mix in -- and keep looking like it's 29.97.

If all you have is 24p footage, you should never NOT edit in 24p.[/quote]

Secondly I will be outputting to dvd and web, so working in 24 p timeline sequence is what I perfer anyway.

O.K. So good so far, pop open up a homebrew and now I can relax, capture and edit, right?!

ok, maybe.

So, I start capturing the footage in a 24p sequence. When I play the clips from the browser, not yet in the timeline, they play at 30i. This makes sense because they have pulldown added, right?

still so far so good... i think.

Bring them into my 24p timeline, they play fine no rendering needed.

But here is where my understanding falls apart.

One other user on DVXUSER.com states that
you had to use cinema tools to remove the pulldown from a reugluar 24p file. Or otherwise stay working on a 30 frame sequence timeline.

So how is this clip being able to play in a 24p timeline, is the pulldown being removed already?

One poster on DVXUSER said I should only edit 24p footage on a 30 frame sequence timeline. Because the clips are inherently 30i.

So why am I able to play them fine in a 24p timeline?

Do I need to recapture everything and work in 30i, or can I stay in 24p?

Apple G4 17" laptop Mac OS X (10.4.9)

Apple G4 17" laptop Mac OS X (10.4.9)

Posted on Mar 29, 2007 11:52 AM

30 replies

Mar 29, 2007 10:12 PM in response to Shane Ross

.

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Mar 29, 2007 10:19 PM in response to Cinematographer NW

Well now you are confusing me. If the timecode shows 30 numbers, and 20 frames, then it is regular DV...29.97fps. It cannot be 23.98. You must be misreading something somewhere, because it cannot be 30fps and say that it is 23.98. At least in my experience.

Click on the timeline you are using. Press APPLE-0 (zero)...what are the sequence settings? Frame rate?

You set out to get clarity, and all you have done is confuse me.

Shane

Mar 29, 2007 11:06 PM in response to Shane Ross

I know, and that is where my confusion started.

Just ran more tests and the same thing is happening, when I capture my 24p footage as 23.98.
Playing 29 individual frames in the viewer, but being able to drop into a 24p timeline seq without any rendering.

I don't believe I have been misreading anything, as I have been working in final cut for years. Just the first time this has come up for me.

My sequence settings are editing time base of 23.98
using the 'DV/DVCPRO'Quicktime Video Settings for Compressor
though I don't think that has anything to do specifically with this.

hmmm.. Could it be that the 30 frames that are showing in the viewer from each individual clip in my browser is just the playback pulldown setting that final cut pro applies?
The same setting that is under the 'Playback Control' in the system settings?

I have decided to work my edit in a 30 frame timeline, my footage was too skippy when any fast camera movements, talen movements, or zooms.

But I still want to figure out what is happening. Didn't mean to make you confused as well. Everyone seems to think I was just overcomplicating it, but just curious to what is happening.

Zebulun

Level 5

6,749 points

Mar 30, 2007 4:23 AM in response to Cinematographer NW

wow, this is overly confusing.

my big questions is why is this being captured at 23.98 when you emphatically stated you shot 24p standard? above, max is correct that when using the standard pulldown cadence, you must use cinema tools to strip the pulldown after capturing. only 24p advanced pulldown may be removed during capture. therefore 24p must be captured with the DV NTSC 48k preset.

you also haven't mentioned what camera this was shot with.

i have some video in front of me that i shot 24p, removed the telecine through cinema tools and that creates a .rev file which i then edit into a 23.98 fps sequence. if i load a clip into the viewer from the sequence, it is 24p timecode. if i connect to the master .rev source file and step through it, it is 24p timecode. the only time i see 29.97 fps timecode is when i go back to the camera original that was shot 24p but captured as 29.97 DV NTSC 48K.

judging from your comments there is a fundamental workflow flaw here that has begun before this video was even captured. also, you simply cannot just change your editing timebase willy nilly and not have to not render everything you drop into the sequence. you need to indentify exactly what your source footage frame rate is and telecine method is before you can proceed correctly. once you made this determination, the methodology is very straight forward but the whys and wherefores are usually debated (for example, i will always debate the erstwhile shane ross on the merits of always stripping the pulldown from 24p video and the usage of 24pa video for everything, including tapeouts.)

good luck and i can't stress enough how important it is to be precise in this methodology and with the weird vernacular that has sprung up surrounding this frame rate fall-da-rall, otherwise you're in for a heap of confusion and conflicting info from everyone.

zeb

Mar 30, 2007 10:55 AM in response to Zebulun

and I think the fundamental workflow flaw here is when I captured the footage as 24p, instead of regular NTSC @ 30.

Seems counter-intuitive, but I believe I understand it now.

And that is why I like to stick to shooting HD and film!
Although HD has its various formats, much more straight forward!

Zebulun

Level 5

6,749 points

Mar 30, 2007 12:17 PM in response to Cinematographer NW

a film guy, that explains it.

actually, film and hd are way more involved than this, you're making it really much harder than it is.

if it really is 24p standard, recapture using the NTSC DV 48k easy setup. i say if it really is as you can't believe how many folks say it's one thing but it's not or they accidently "filmed" it as advanced or standard or.....basically people lack any sort of attention to detail.

as you most likely know, this is written to mini-dv tape (i'm assuming this was shot on a dvx100 but i do not know) with a pulldown cadence to to bring the 23.98 fps video to the ntsc standard of 29.97 fps. it's in 23.98 as opposed to 24 fps as that pulldown to 29.97 would be fractional and require way more processing.

after you capture it, the item properties should say it's at 29.97 fps, with a data rate of 3.7 mbps. open cinema tools, do a reverse telecine and that will strip the pulldown leaving you with .rev files and you can open them in quicktime you'll see they are playing at 23.98 fps. import those into fcp, set the sequence timebase to 23.98 fps and edit away.

to view on an external monitor, fcp automatically inserts a pulldown.

you're a film guy, this is nothing compared to what you have to deal with. this is way dumbed down, you're making it too complicated.

zeb

Mar 30, 2007 1:16 PM in response to Cinematographer NW

zeb's right, you're over-complicating this.

Your video camera records to tape at 30 frames per second with a frame rate of 29.97. Your 24p clips are recorded at 29.97 with a flag that says, 'the pulldown pattern is 2:3:2:3' for proper field removal.

If you don't pulldown (remove) those fields, the image will look choppy, because it has extra fields to play back. In Final Cut, you capture at 29.97, then use Cinema Tools to create new clips with the extra fields removed. Those clips will then be imported back into FCP and you edit them into a 24 frame timeline (23.98).

But 24pa clips are recorded to tape at 29.97 with a flag that says 'pulldown pattern is 2:3:3:2' for field removal. Because 2:3:3:2 pulldown results in 100% whole, non-mixed frames, Final Cut can remove the extra fields in real time while capturing. To do this, you select the 24pa pulldown Easy Setup.

Those clips then are edited into a 24 frame timeline (23.98) for playback.

So, in your case, if they were recorded to tape as 24p clips, then use the standard DV NTSC Easy Setup, capture the clips, then go to Cinema Tools and have CT remove the pulldown and import back into FCP and edit into a 24 frame timeline.

Make sense?

EDIT: zeb, did I say everything correctly? You played a major role in teaching me all this 24 frame stuff, you know.

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Mar 30, 2007 1:44 PM in response to Brian Conner

Or you can capture and edit regular 24p at 29.97...and it will look fine.

Shane

Mar 30, 2007 1:53 PM in response to Shane Ross

ah, I have seen the light!

So, when I accidently captured at 24p, what was final cut doing to those extra frames, just tossing them out?

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Mar 30, 2007 2:54 PM in response to Cinematographer NW

Yes...it was doing an improper pulldown for the footage type you have.

As Brian stated.

Shane

Mar 30, 2007 2:59 PM in response to Shane Ross

I was wrong about one thing, and you properly corrected me, Shane.

It's been a long time since I worked in 24p, so I was wrong when I said that playing it back in a 29.97 timeline would play back choppy.

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Mar 30, 2007 3:06 PM in response to Brian Conner

We all got each others back...

Man...HUGE fire out here. In the middle of town. Universal City...in the hills behind Warner Brothers and right next to the Hollywood sign.

No structures lost...and it has stopped advancing towards the Sign...Very good news.

Shane

Mar 30, 2007 3:09 PM in response to Shane Ross

Thanks, you are the first to explain this, and make perfect sense, much simplier then I thought.

Mar 30, 2007 3:23 PM in response to Cinematographer NW

How was it started?

Zebulun

Level 5

6,749 points

Mar 30, 2007 3:35 PM in response to Shane Ross

Yes...it was doing an improper pulldown for the
footage type you have.

it wasn't doing a pulldown. the pulldown is the process to create five extra frames per second to get back to 29.97 fps. in this case, all fcp was doing was capturing 24 frames and throwing away the other five. or, if you will, it was doing an extremely improper reverse telecine or "pull up."

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24P (Standard) Help, Conflicting information!