23.976 frame rate explained

sure - but these guys who have transferred there video digitally - what fps did they shoot at? i can't for the life of me see why they would shoot at anything other than standard frame rates.

your problem to an extent is by accepting QT in the format the offline is being run at. that can cause a host of problems in itself. i have tried with QTs from offlines many times and very rarely can i play them back because they have some kind of rich and smelly codec you have to pay top dollar for. so - they play out to DVD for me these days - in fact if i were to ask for QT i would likely get a pained expression followed by an apologetic 'i don't know what you're talking about' look.

i can see your point though - editors are rarely particularly technically saavy, so they will just chuck you whatever is easiest for them. but that is most liikely going to be the new HD frame rates surely?

sure i take your point about the mixture of hi def and film though i am not in the situation to have to worry abut that UN-fortunately. i think you will still find that it is incumbent on the post house to send you over formats that YOU can work to - and presumably they have ways of dealing with that.

QT is very much where it's at - but it hasn't replaced standard formats by any stretch of the imagination. at least not over here. we swap QT files for cues and bits and bobs but not whole films or TV shows.

these guys hire you because of your musical abilities not your technical ones, so it is important to simply say what is you want and need and find a way to work together.

Yes, you wont get a programme delivered on VHS or DVD (video) with that fps rate. It wouldn't work! So if the composer ~does~ get a film with this odd frame rate it will be a QT movie on a recordable disk. If the composer is a Logic user it will cause him big problems!

yeah mate, this is where i think something ain't right. well, that is not how it is generally done although i concede maybe its starting to be done that way. we normally get a VHS or DVD. in the old days they might stripe the VHS on one channel, but nowdays its all DVD - sync on one channel temp music on the other.

if you ask for a DVD playout, you can work at 29.97 but have your discussions based on the SMPTE in your BITC. (sounds uncomfortable).

if you get a QT you will have to make sure it is a standard frame rate. they are your requirements.

i thought 23.937 was 24 'pulldown'. so yeah i was confused. thanks for the info....jeez what a minefield. thinking about it has just made forget this really great tune i was working on....blast....how did it go again?.....dum tee dah.....no....tee dah dah.....no.....

sure - but these guys who have transferred there
video digitally - what fps did they shoot at? i can't
for the life of me see why they would shoot at
anything other than standard frame rates.

They shoot with a 24p-capable (23.976) camera, download their footage directly into Final Cut, and the editor starts editing. No intermediate steps. So from start to finish, their movie is at the 23.976 frame rate. That's my understanding.

your problem to an extent is by accepting QT in the
format the offline is being run at. that can cause a
host of problems in itself. i have tried with QTs
from offlines many times and very rarely can i play
them back because they have some kind of rich and
smelly codec you have to pay top dollar for. so -
they play out to DVD for me these days - in fact if i
were to ask for QT i would likely get a pained
expression followed by an apologetic 'i don't know
what you're talking about' look.

Huh! Interesting that... Well, OK, a couple of things. You're much more "in the trenches" making your living as a composer, and apparently on a much higher level of project that those which I regularly get. Regarding my "real projects" -- as opposed to the indy films which will hopefully be stepping stones for me towards the kind of work you regularly do... you know from our offline correspondence who I've been working for over the past 1.5 years or so. It's as real as it gets in that genre of filmmaking. Anyway, their footage is always delivered to me as a QT movie at the original 24 fps (actual animation) frame rate. Oh yes, and, compressed using Sorenson Video 3 compression. No raised eyebrows on their part.

When I first started doing work for them, they specified that my masters had to be delivered as PT sessions, at 30 fps frame rate! How weird, right? Not 29.97, but 30. And working on animation at 24 fps too. My eyebrows were raised! I ended up discussing the matter with them and at the end of the day they agreed that everything should remain at 24 fps across the board. Any pullup/pulldown gobbletygook would be taken care of on their end.

So, back to the indy films... Yup, straight from camera to editor to me. 23.976 frame rate on some films, 29.97 on others. But I always work at their editor's native format.

i can see your point though - editors are rarely
particularly technically saavy...

Indeed... (sigh)

but that is most liikely going to be the new HD frame rate surely?

I don't know.

i thought 23.937 was 24 'pulldown'. so yeah i was
confused. thanks for the info....jeez what a
minefield. thinking about it has just made forget
this really great tune i was working
on....blast....how did it go again?.....dum tee
dah.....no....tee dah dah.....no.....

ROFLMAO! Literally!

-=iS=-

Hey guys, thought I'd jump in since I'm also partner in an indy production company. First, everyone here is absolutely right - this problem is only with QT files (which most of us work with nowadays) and 24p has nothing to do with 23.976 but: a couple of years ago Panasonic came out with a camera called the AG-DVX100. This camera set the indy world on fire because it cost peanuts, shot at 24p (giving a very impressive film-look) and used mini-dv tape. Now to accomplish this feat it sent video to the computer at at frame rate of - you guessed it - 23.976 (even though the actual video was shot at 29.97 on tape) I once knew the specifics and voodoo of it but frankly I don't remember anymore. Suffice it to say that FCP had to be updated to work specifically with that camera (and it was) and that yes, we ended up editing at 23.976 (which is now also a sequence option in FCP).

So the bottom-line is that I agree with iSchwartz. Like it or not this is now a working production frame rate (at the edit stage) and it would seem logical (eh!) for it to be supported in Logic, if only to be consistent with the rest of the production suite.

And don't get me started on HD codecs.... I just wanna play music darnit.


Powerbook G4 + iMac Core2Duo 24in + Logic Pro 7.2.3 Mac OS X (10.4.9)

Jade,

Thanks so much for chiming in on this (really it's Thomas' place to say that since it's his thread, but I'm grateful for the info all the same).

And that's the camera!!! that these indy filmmakers are all talking about -- the DVX100. The last three things I scored were made on these cameras. (Two of the three films aren't even worth talking about, though I'm sure it's not the camera's fault LOL!)

So if I have this right, 24p is shot at a true 24 frames per second, progressive scan, but when it's sent to the computer it does so at 23.976 and then... and then we have this thread! : - )

-=iS=-

Your "A" literally fell O? Amazing.

The lot of you are completely blowing my mind. I feel like I'm getting a fairly comfortable grip on Logic and I may want to try to score something, then y'all go and throw out this complex math stuff. My head hurts. I guess i got me some more learnin' to do....

X

Zen Master X-man,

My advice? Don't worry about this stuff. It's only an issue if you're working on a film that's at the 23.976 frame rate. And even then, if you're just getting your feet wet scoring to picture you don't really need to worry about timecode so much (unless the thing you're scoring happens to have a timecode burn). What's more important than timecode is setting the right mood, pacing, hitting "hit points" (if applicable) and getting in and getting out of scenes (if it's not a wall-to-wall kind of score).

thanks for this thomas - very interesting and informative. seems i am a bit behind the times.

i don't envy you guys with your NTSC bolloks.

I was reading (rather fast) through this thread and a lot of good thoughts are being portrayed on the matter.
Some confusion is also involved.

One thing I could maybe emphasize in this regard is the fact that in general, two concepts are looked at as being one.

One is speed.
The other is frame rate.

These two things are of course often based on the same foundation but what can make a lot of confusion on the matter is that they are sometimes not.

What I mean by this is when we talk about frame rate we are dividing the second into equally timed units but we do this without necessary referring to a "real-life" second.

As an example if something is shot at the speed 24fps and then played back at the speed 23.976 the reality that happened in front of the camera is being played back 0,1% slower than it actually happened. And this is troublesome since the audio being recorded on the set is still at the original speed.

This can be very confusing if i.e. what happened in front of the camera was done in time (in sync), with a played back musical song. If this song is then being laid back to a QT (or video), that is played back at the speed 23.976 it will drift out, by the amount of 0.1% !

On the other hand if a material "now living" at the speed 23.976 is being transferred to a frame rate 29.98 nothing happens in regards to the speed. This is being done by actually playing the material back at the speed 23.976 but six frames (twelve video fields) from the 23.976 material are methodically repeated within every second of the frame rate 29.97. So the the speed 23.976 can actually be (and most of the time is), the same as the speed 29.98.

So to clarify with examples :

1.
When you are working on a audio material against a QT at the speed 23.976 that was shot at the speed 24p or at the speed 23.976 that needs to be transferred to a film print to be projected in a cinema the person who does the final mixdown of all the audio for the film (music, dialogue and effects), needs to speed this final mixdown up by 0,1% before delivering the mixdown to a film laboratory that manufactures the release print.

2.
When you are working on a audio material against a QT at the speed 23.976 that was shot at the speed 24p or at the speed 23.976 that is going to be broadcast in a TV with the NTSC standard. No change in speed needs to be done to the mixdown before laying it back to the final broadcast master.


---- (end of examples) ----

When I am working on a project that is going to be transferred to a film print to be projected in a cinema and was originally shot at the speed 24 I would ask for a QT at the speed 24 and work against that. No change in speed would then ever have to occur in the course of that project until I would have to deliver the mixdown at either at the speed 29.98 or at the speed 25 (used in PAL and SECAM). Then I would have to speed the mixdown down by 0,1% or up by 4% respectively.

Regarding Logic Pro not being able to work in a 23.976 frame rate, I think that is annoying and since this frame rate is getting quite common I guess Apple will bring it in to the program soon.

---- Another thought ----

Also, I personally do not agree with the way Logic Pro handles frame rates.

I imported a QT material with burnt-in timecode (BITC) representing a 25 frames per second frame rate. The TC in LP and the BITC were in accordance to each other but if I changed to a 24fps frame rate in LP the TC in LP was still(!) in accordance with the BITC except when going from frame 23 to 24 LP jumped to the first frame (zero) of the next second.

For me that has no use !

Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.6) LP 7.2.3 (PPC)

In the above post I made the mistake of saying :
23.976 when I should have said : 23.967
and also :
29.98 when I should have said : 29.97

Sorry for that.

My long post above should use the frame rates :
23.976 and
29.97

Sorry again
(Too bad I can´t edit my posts)
Kjartan