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Level 1

0 points

Probable explanation for Ipod Touch LCD deficiencies

I'm an engineer with experience in the LCD industry and after seeing enough photos of the Ipod Touch I feel that I can make a pretty accurate assessment of the "black level" situation. It appears to me that it's a problem with the *anti-reflective coating*. The good news is this is most likely a temporary situation due to quality control issues.

(Added explanation: The AR coating is essentially a clear layer that prevents light from reflecting off of that surface. What's happening here is the upper glass layer is reflecting light from the LCD screen back down onto the said screen. Without an AR coating you get exactly what you see - shimmering blacks. The problem isn't noticeable with vibrant colors on screen. Rotating the screen will change the way this light is reflected to your eyes and may minimize the problem, but since the LCD was engineered to give best color output when looking straight on, you're left with a losing battle.)

Apple surely rushed the factory on getting these out (Steve was likely already upset enough that they weren't ready for the announcement along with the other units) and the factory, under undoubtedly ridiculous amounts of pressure, started to skimp on this very expensive - and very important - part of the process. Additionally, AR coating issues would also explain why you see "slight changes" from one unit to the next.

It's the last thing anyone wants to hear, but the best thing to do is wait 2 weeks or even a month for the complaints to filter through Apple HQ into the factory where changes will certainly be made.

Good luck all - and to those who got good units congrats!

Message was edited by: drvelocity

Message was edited by: drvelocity

Message was edited by: drvelocity

Macbook Pro, Mac OS X (10.4.10)

Posted on Sep 15, 2007 11:20 PM

89 replies

Benny B

Level 1

49 points

Sep 17, 2007 10:24 AM in response to futbalguy

Are you an LCD expert since you can say it so definitely?
explain one thing then... call up a photo on a good laptop LCD and then view it from extreme angles. See funny contrast issues? Why can't this be the same thing only in reverse?

jmpage2

Level 1

19 points

Sep 17, 2007 10:28 AM in response to Benny B

Maybe you didn't notice that engineer WITH LCD MANUFACTURING EXPERIENCE who started the thread who is pretty confident that it IS an issue with the panel and not with software.

Yikes, some real DAFT folks around here that simply don't want to admit that this thing has some serious issues.

Benny B

Level 1

49 points

Sep 17, 2007 10:38 AM in response to jmpage2

I did notice that it was started by an engineer. I also noticed that he hadn't actually seen one and diagnosed it from seeing photos. Just not good enough for the scientist in me.
This isn't being fanboy. I'm looking to help fix the problem not just posting useless *****g.

jmpage2

Level 1

19 points

Sep 17, 2007 10:45 AM in response to Benny B

I'm not just posting 'useless ********'. I'm also an engineer with a lot of electronics experience, just no experience with LCD construction. I've owned two of these and from the way the screen behaves I think that it's far more likely that this is a hardware defect than that some patch or contrast slider is going to fix this problem.

Sep 17, 2007 10:46 AM in response to Benny B

Because someone who actually is an expert did explain the reason, and it's just not the same.

Sep 17, 2007 11:08 AM in response to UrbanVoyeur

The LCD really seems to be displaying the right shade of black or whatever, you can see this when you tilt the screen. But then the colors overall start to wash out, so when you watch movies you're constantly cognizant of viewing angle, it's a pain.

You can tell by looking at an affected unit in person, that it has to do with lighting somehow. Like when you tilt a cell phone with cheap screen, and the blacks wash out in that weird way (hence the term 'negative effect'). It's not just color fading, it's like there's a glare obstructing the screen. Except with Touch, the bad blacks appear when you are looking at the unit straight on.

I don't know if the OP is exactly right, he's just offering a suggestion. But he's probably somewhere in the right area. There's something going on with reflections and lighting, and not simply whether the LCD itself is calibrated right.

I doubt a firmware update can fix this, but I don't know for sure.

Sep 17, 2007 11:13 AM in response to drvelocity

I have some videos on my iPod that I converted from my DVDs and the Apple store said they won't check those out because they are not supported. Is there a good example of something that I can buy in the iTunes Store that shows this issue that someone could possibly point me at? This way I have a good example of their content that is having the issue.

Thanks,
Kyle

jmpage2

Level 1

19 points

Sep 17, 2007 11:18 AM in response to Kyle Hayes

Someone said that any of the Battlestar Galactica TV series episodes will highlight the problem vividly as the show has a dark cast to it and lots of outer space scenes, etc.

Sep 17, 2007 11:31 AM in response to Benny B

Have you read any of the descriptions of the problem? All LCD's start to look bad when viewed from off-angle.

The problem is that the iPod Touch (or certain units) look bad when viewed directly head-on. That's when you get the weird artifacts, tilting the screen helps with the artifact but then you start to degrade the overall picture quality (as happens with off-axis viewing of all LCD's.)

Sep 17, 2007 11:40 AM in response to drvelocity

Another thing that I noticed when I was in the store was that because they have so much ambient and direct light, that the light tends to make those black issues look a lot less severe then when you are at home and only dealing with indirect light in your room.

For instance, the way to see what I mean is if you have a halogen but it a few feet above your head and look at the iPod, it looks a lot different. This may be an issue that is going to be a harder sell at the Apple Store.

Btw, I ended up having some Heroes episodes in iTunes and those have the same issue. A lot of dark scenes and what not.

Jaqueh

Level 1

35 points

Sep 17, 2007 11:44 AM in response to Benny B

benny rhymes with idioty?
well thats besides the point, i am sure it is not the gamma issue, because in different lighting sources, the black level problem changes. for instance, in a lighted room, the black problem is almost undetectable because of the chemical property of the screen's coating. that is why in a dark room, the coating is not being utilized so the real screen (without an illusion created by the coating) can be seen, and it looks dreadful. Also, in a dark room, or in sunlight, tilting the screen proves to have differenting results. Which in no way means its a gamma problem because the actual screen is being affected by the tilting.

Sep 17, 2007 11:56 AM in response to Kyle Hayes

Kyle, that's just another way of them trying to dismiss your claim, and a very valid claim.

Black is black, whether on a ripped DVD or from a purchased iTunes download.

I took mine back this morning - got a full refund.

Seriously, if you're not happy with your $400 slightly ugly girlfriend, take her back and get your money back - don't take no for an answer. the law protects you from being sold substandard products.

Benny B

Level 1

49 points

Sep 17, 2007 12:31 PM in response to Jaqueh

you show some real class there...

Sep 17, 2007 1:46 PM in response to jmpage2

Wow, are you saying an Apple Store "genius" tried to tell you that was from poor encoding? That's quite frankly horrible and unacceptable. I think I'd actually fire them if I was their manager. Gives Apple a really bad name saying crap like that.

Sorry that happened to you.

thorno

Level 1

4 points

Sep 17, 2007 2:41 PM in response to masterzone

yeah. hopefully it's fixed for my order.

I still can't get myself to cancel it :P

Probable explanation for Ipod Touch LCD deficiencies