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Level 1

0 points

Probable explanation for Ipod Touch LCD deficiencies

I'm an engineer with experience in the LCD industry and after seeing enough photos of the Ipod Touch I feel that I can make a pretty accurate assessment of the "black level" situation. It appears to me that it's a problem with the *anti-reflective coating*. The good news is this is most likely a temporary situation due to quality control issues.

(Added explanation: The AR coating is essentially a clear layer that prevents light from reflecting off of that surface. What's happening here is the upper glass layer is reflecting light from the LCD screen back down onto the said screen. Without an AR coating you get exactly what you see - shimmering blacks. The problem isn't noticeable with vibrant colors on screen. Rotating the screen will change the way this light is reflected to your eyes and may minimize the problem, but since the LCD was engineered to give best color output when looking straight on, you're left with a losing battle.)

Apple surely rushed the factory on getting these out (Steve was likely already upset enough that they weren't ready for the announcement along with the other units) and the factory, under undoubtedly ridiculous amounts of pressure, started to skimp on this very expensive - and very important - part of the process. Additionally, AR coating issues would also explain why you see "slight changes" from one unit to the next.

It's the last thing anyone wants to hear, but the best thing to do is wait 2 weeks or even a month for the complaints to filter through Apple HQ into the factory where changes will certainly be made.

Good luck all - and to those who got good units congrats!

Message was edited by: drvelocity

Message was edited by: drvelocity

Message was edited by: drvelocity

Macbook Pro, Mac OS X (10.4.10)

Posted on Sep 15, 2007 11:20 PM

89 replies

Talsma

Level 1

0 points

Sep 16, 2007 6:19 PM in response to jmpage2

Hmm I don't think it takes as long as you might think.

The current iPod Touches that are out were made in week 36 and 37.

That is just like a week or 2 ago.

Sep 17, 2007 4:32 AM in response to drvelocity

What would be interesting experiment to try out is to remove the outer glass from the screen, and see if that "fixes" the problem. Obviously you couldn't really use the device without the glass, but at least we could then narrow the possible causes down a bit.

R C-R

Level 6

17,782 points

Sep 17, 2007 7:23 AM in response to jmpage2

If Apple is not even aware of the issue it could take a couple of months for 'good' units to make their way to store shelves.

It appears that what is on shelves now is a mix of good & bad units.

The theory of this thread points toward a quality control issue with a manufacturing step -- either with the application of the anti-reflective coating, the assembly of the LCD-glass sandwich, or possibly both. It is also possible the defect is introduced post-manufacture, for instance by exceeding non-operating environmental limits during shipping. (Imagine Touch LCD-glass sandwiches de-laminating in a poorly pressurized air freight cargo hold or overheated truck or rail car.) It is even possible the defect is "pre-manufacture" -- for instance a maker of the coating or some other chemical knowingly or unknowingly supplies an adulterated or substandard product.

All of these things occur frequently enough in modern worldwide commerce that it is unlikely Apple or its manufacturing affiliates can't pinpoint the source of the problem & correct it quickly. In fact, it probably already has. Identifying already shipped units with the defect is potentially much more difficult, depending on the cause. This will probably require resolution at the retail level.

The right thing for Apple to do in this respect is to let the retail channel know about the possibility of the defect, supply methods to it for identifying the defect that don't depend on highly subjective judgments, & expedite replacements with units free of the defect from known good supplies. To avoid snafus it probably won't do the first step until it can supply the second, but that should take a matter of a few days at most. The third step might take longer because of high demand & limited known-good, in-channel product availability.

jmpage2

Level 1

16 points

Sep 17, 2007 7:31 AM in response to R C-R

Even the photos/videos I've seen of the 'good' displays don't hold a candle to the display quality of the iPhone, they show over-contrasted images with no details in the dark areas of a scene.

So at this point I'm not sure if there really are any 'good' units out there. It's certainly possible that something is failing in manufacturing, curing or shipping of the product that is resulting in varying degrees of symptoms with end units.

And I agree, the smartest thing for Apple to do is alert all retailers with affected batches of the product that they need to swap out the affected units (identified by serial, etc) with a new one, for a period of say 90 days to get the bad units cycled out.

There is a lot of money at stake here (10's of Millions at least) so it's hard to say if Apple will do the 'right thing' or not.

Sep 17, 2007 8:55 AM in response to drvelocity

Good attempt at solving the problem, but I disagree with you.

1.) The brightness is turned all the way up.

2.) You just can't see any of the black detail. Period. It's not Bright enough.

3.) In areas where you should see some dark detail, it randomly is Brighter in certain areas.

This is clearly not the AR layer. It's a problem with the video codec or display settings. The AR properties are working fine, #1 means brightness is all the way max (it should be washed out).

#2 and #3 indicate that the colors just aren't displaying right.

Again, good try, but you're not addressing the actual problems with the brightness.

Sep 17, 2007 8:55 AM in response to jmpage2

oh so good....I'm in preorder here..I hope in next week apple send ok units...good news anyway....

Mz

jmpage2

Level 1

16 points

Sep 17, 2007 9:04 AM in response to BenLindelof

If what you were saying was correct then the picture wouldn't look "normal" when viewed at an off-axis angle.

This problem DOES show up in other places than video it's just not as obvious. Additionally the iPod is super bright, this issue is not with brightness or video drivers, it's a problem with these displays.

Sep 17, 2007 9:07 AM in response to jmpage2

Well looking at the images in numerous reviews and forums this looks more like a viewing angle issue to me, off axis viewing on cheaper LCD screens can cause a negative affect which is more prominent on darker colours. Also on cheaper screens the horizontal viewing angle is lower than the vertical so rotating the screen would further emphasise this problem.

Just my thought.

Sep 17, 2007 9:10 AM in response to BenLindelof

Sounds like it is a problem with the gamma of the LCD's baseline calibration. The gamma curves control what shades map to black, grey, etc. If a several of dark colors all appear black with no separation, then these curves need tweaking.

I think it could be fixed for a software patch - especially on that allowed you to control the curves. or just better initial calibration.

jmpage2

Level 1

16 points

Sep 17, 2007 9:12 AM in response to Neil Curry

This isn't off axis viewing. This is head on viewing with the problem described (blacks showing up with a glow like a film negative).

Look at this image which is HEAD ON to the screen (I should know, as I photographed it);

http://home.comcast.net/~audi-fan/IMG_5940.jpg

In fact, tilting the screen AWAY to an off axis angle can slightly correct the problem. I've owned LCDs since they came out and have owned about a dozen of them over the past 10 or so years. I've never seen one that looks like this.

Sep 17, 2007 9:32 AM in response to UrbanVoyeur

Its clearly not a software issue. As an owner of one of these defective touchs I can say it certainly manufacturing. The screen looks better when viewed from an angle. Not just any angle though, only by rotating it back and slightly to the left does it look decent. Looking at it from any other angle just looks awful.

R C-R

Level 6

17,782 points

Sep 17, 2007 9:49 AM in response to jmpage2

There is a lot of money at stake here (10's of Millions at least) so it's hard to say if Apple will do the 'right thing' or not.

I'm not worried about that for two reasons:

1. Apple is likely insulated from the costs of most manufacturing defects since fabricators & suppliers usually are responsible for reimbursing the costs of defects they cause. For example, Apple says it bore none of the costs of the battery recalls because the defect was in the batteries Sony supplied, not in its own design or manufacturing methods.

2. Even if Apple has to bear all or or most of the cost, it isn't an opportunistic company interested in maximizing short term profits at the expense of long term gains. It doesn't just want to sell you one of its products once, it wants your continued business, ideally replacing the last 'insanely great thing' with the next one for years & years to come.

Obviously, this doesn't work very well unless you actually think the current thing is insanely great!

In fact, I think Apple's biggest problem is it is so good at this that it builds consumer expectations beyond what is possible. We expect zero defects & mission critical, five nines reliability at consumer prices -- every time, all the time.

Sep 17, 2007 10:03 AM in response to futbalguy

Yes, mine looks best when tipping it back and to the left

Sep 17, 2007 10:10 AM in response to jmpage2

If your iPod really displays video the way the picture represents, take it back to Apple. Any self-respecting "genius" will recognize a problem and help score you a "resolution."

jmpage2

Level 1

16 points

Sep 17, 2007 10:13 AM in response to blownfuse

The genius argued with me that it was because it was my 'badly encoded' movie that I had the issue, even though bright scenes in the movie looked fine. He even said that the iPod touch didn't have as good of a screen as the iPhone and I was being too picky about it.

This isn't a simple 'swap it out and everything's fine' sort of situation. I am now on my 2nd iPod with the same issue, after finally convincing them not to hit me with a restocking fee at the Apple Store I purchased one at Best Buy... guess what, same issue.

Probable explanation for Ipod Touch LCD deficiencies