G5 won't calibrate - colors are very saturated?

Hi Kurt.

So sorry for the delay in response. Thank you yet again for all of your expertise!

Okay - here's another 'what if:'
What if I opened my Illustrator file in Tiger, then adjusted the colours in Illustrator to match my memory of how they look in Panther? At that point, won't the final, printed result be washed out, since Tiger shows the colours to be more contrasted?

B.

At that point, won't the final, printed result be washed out, since Tiger shows the colours to be more contrasted?

Yes, since you are adjusting the CMYK values in the file. How they look on screen doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how the final image prints on a professional press. How accurate your screen is depends on how accurately it's calibrated and profiled. Even then, not all colors are going to be perfect. You're still trying to simulate reflected light CMYK and PMS inks on a light emitting RGB device. I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but it is a big difference in how we perceive color. But if your monitor is set up correctly, most colors will be close.

Hi Kurt. Okay - thanks!

I have been second guessing the option to get new video cards for such old machines (as suggested by my supplier)...right now I'm working in Panther while referencing files that I have stored on my Tiger disk, so for the moment, this works for me.

This problem will still bug me, but perhaps when I upgrade my whole system in a year or two it will no longer be an issue(?)

Tonight, I will try one last thing - just so I can post the results here. I have a G4 laptop at home - newer than my PowerMac - with a different video card. I'm going to install Tiger on that. If it works, then it was a hardware issue all along. If not, then I'm right back to the drawing board! Perhaps, at that point, I will want to take your advice about the colour calibration software.

Again, I really appreciate all of the time you've put into answering my questions! Thanks again.

B.

I'm going to install Tiger on that. If it works, then it was a hardware issue all along.

I'd be very interested in finding out if that was the problem. As I noted above, it shouldn't be since the drivers for those cards are included with Tiger. But never say never. 😉

Again, I really appreciate all of the time you've put into answering my questions! Thanks again.

No problem, Belly Buckle. 🙂

Silly me! Sorry, Belly Buckle. I should have thought of this sooner.

It's entirely possible there isn't a thing wrong with either the hardware or the OS. Apple may have rewritten the drivers for that video card for Tiger. As such, it would then be likely that color simply display differently under Tiger.

If that's the case, then you would need to create separate profiles for each OS. In which case, the Eye-One is still a cheaper investment than replacing video cards. And for serious color work, you should have one anyway.

Hi Kurt.

Well isn't that interesting? I think you may actually be right about that...I was wondering the same thing!

After you read this, you may have an even better idea:
I went home and installed Tiger on my laptop. The results are posted below.

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A recap of the issue in point form:

Desktop computers (the specs below apply to two separate G4 computers using different monitors)

System Specs:
2 G4 PowerMacs, 7 years old
Video card: ATY,Rage128Pro
Displays: one using Samsung SyncMaster 213T, the other using a CRT LaCie Eectron Blue
Both running Panther on one disk with all current updates

- Installed Tiger clean, on a second interior drive, with no other application installations
- Colours on desktop immediately appear too contrasty, including icons and backdrop
- Selection of Adobe RGB 1998 display profile makes desktop colours appear even more contrasty
- Newly calibrated display profile doesn't seem to work - colours still too contrasty
- Other display profiles are either too washed out or too contrasty
- Upon installation of Adobe Creative Suite 1, all files opened in Illustrator, InDesign and Photoshop (previously created on my Panther disk) appear too intense in colour and dark in contrast. All files contain embedded Adobe RGB 1998 profiles.



Laptop

System Specs:
G4 Powerbook, 4 years old
Video card: ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 chip model: ATY,RV360M11
Previously running Panther with all current updates

- Installed Tiger clean, with no other application installations
- Colours on desktop look good with generic LCD display profile, including icons and backdrop
- Selection of Adobe RGB 1998 display profile makes desktop colours appear too contrasted
- Newly calibrated display profile creates perfect monitor colour setting, all desktop colours look great. Internet sites and images look great.
- All photographic images (backed up on external drive from my Panther disk) look perfect in colour and contrast when opened in Preview
- Any photograhic image that had been previously created or altered in Adobe CS1 apps display as slightly too contrasted and intense in colour in Preview.

Further to this, I will give an example: I had taken a photo of my friend with a digital camera. On my Panther disk, I opened the jpeg, resaved it as a native psd file with an Adobe RGB 1998 embedded profile, and used levels to adjust the contrast a bit.

On my laptop with the newly installed Tiger, I opened both photos in Preview. The unaltered jpeg looks perfect and the Photoshop file appears too dark and my friend's skin too reddish.

So, Kurt, here's my uneducated guess:

- You are right about Tiger drivers viewing colour differently
- It is also a video card issue, since on my laptop I can get everything looking great (except for the CS files). This is something I cannot do on the two desktop computers - no matter what, I can't find a monitor calibration that works.
- There may be an issue embedding profiles in CS?



So - any new thoughts about this now?
B.

Hi Belly Buckle,

Yes, it's starting to sound like there's just that much of a difference between the Tiger drivers for the Rage 128 vs. the Radeon 9700.

There may be an issue embedding profiles in CS?

Nope. It's embedding the same Adobe 1998 profile the other apps are and an image can only contain one profile. So CS itself can't be the issue. Although your statement, I opened both photos in Preview. The unaltered jpeg looks perfect and the Photoshop file appears too dark and my friend's skin too reddish. still sounds strange. Color should appear the same in both apps since they're working with the same profile embedded in the image and the same monitor profile.

Check the color settings in Photoshop on the laptop. What is set as the working color space for RGB? Under Color Management Policies for RGB, is it set to "Convert to Working RGB"? In the Advanced Options, are "Desaturate monitor..." and "Blend RGB Colors..." both turned off?

Hi Kurt.

"Color should appear the same in both apps since they're working with the same profile embedded in the image and the same monitor profile."

You're right: it is strange!

In answer to your question: my Photoshop settings on all machines are the same:
RGB: Adobe RGB 1998, CMYK: U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2, Colorsync Gray:Generic Gray Profile, Spot: Dot Gain 20%, All Color Management Policies set to 'Convert To Working Space,' Color Engine: Adobe (ACE), Intent: Relative Colormetric with boxes selected for Use Black Point Compensation and Use Dither (8 bit/channel images). And lastly, yes: the two boxes are deselected for Desaturate Monitor Colors and Blend RGB Colors Using Gamma.

The same goes with Illustrator and InDesign: all settings are exact on all three machines.

I have also booted into Tiger on my desktop to do the same test, re: comparing in Preview an untouched jpeg vs. a Photoshop altered image. The same results occur: my Photoshop image is slightly more contrasted looking.

As for Illustrator, on my Tiger disk the files I've created look way better in Preview than in Illustrator, which is odd, since I've created them originally in Illustrator! Again, the Adobe apps in Tiger make my files appear too intense. I thought it may be the colour engine, as Tiger's Preview only gives Apple CMM as an option. So I went and adjusted Illustrator and Photoshop by changing Adobe (ACE) to Apple CMM, to no avail.


So, are we any closer...? 🙂
B.

So, are we any closer...? 🙂

Ha!!! I wish I could say yes. 🙂 That colors won't appear the same in different applications that are all ColorSync aware, even after a clean install, is just weird. It's got to have something to do with how they are sending data to the video driver/card.

I have used both CS and CS2 apps in both Panther and Tiger, and now CS3 apps in Tiger on my G5, which has an ATI 9600 XT video card. Color has always been consistent in either OS with all apps. I can only conclude it's an issue with the older video cards. Hard to say for sure though without actually working on your Macs.

That sounds like the best guess, Kurt. I am also thinking it has to be video card related.

In the meantime, you can see how this puts my trust in display colour out of whack! If I were to create a brand new file on my Tiger disk in one of my CS apps, I wouldn't be able to trust how it is appearing on my clients' end. I have no way to guage the colour at all!

Which brings me to the burning question: I can't possibly be the only one who has experienced this transitional issue between OSs?? I am wracking my brain to understand why I cannot find at least ONE similar post about this anywhere!

Sigh.

So after all of this, I suppose my safest (and most economical) bet is to just continue on in Panther until I upgrade my machines 😟

Again, I thank you for allowing yourself to go crazy with this! I appreciate all the help. Take care!
B.

So after all of this, I suppose my safest (and most economical) bet is to just continue on in Panther until I upgrade my machines.

I'm thinking you're right. Better to stay in an older OS where you know things work to your satisfaction.

Again, I thank you for allowing yourself to go crazy with this! I appreciate all the help. Take care!

No problem. I like puzzle solving. Didn't get this one, though. 🙂

Hi there Kurt.

Long time no type!

I fell upon a Macfixit forum link last night - very curious how this person is experiencing what sounds like the same thing - only from Tiger to Leopard!

I thought you may want to check it out:

http://www.macfixitforums.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=leopard&Number=837125&page =0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1


What are your thoughts?
b.

As Lewis Carroll wrote, "Curiouser and curiouser!".

That's just too weird, BB. And he's even using a colorimeter!!! Which makes it even weirder.

For the record, that's partly why I have no initial plans to upgrade to Leopard. I use my Mac for my in home business. "Testing" unknown software, no matter what it is, is something I can't afford to do. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I just don't get why those folks and yourself are having this problem. Even after an erase and install of everything, which means you can't blame corrupt files.

You know what this is beginning to sound like? Like the OS isn't copying the LUT (Look Up Table) to your video card in Tiger. Or the video card itself for some reason isn't loading it. And possibly the same thing for the user with Leopard at the other forum. That would explain why the correct profile is selected, but the monitor's calibration is still wrong.

Hey Kurt.

Wow - I don't know what you just said but it sounds good to me!

I hope more people start coming out of the closet with a similar issue and perhaps the video cards will be the same make...?

Who knows.

I'll keep you posted if I find any other related threads.

Take care!
B.

Wow - I don't know what you just said but it sounds good to me!

Ha! 🙂 Funny!

The LUT, in part, controls the gamma output of the video card. In your case, the gamma is staying high compared to your Panther install, causing the bright, over saturated solid or near solid colors you see in Tiger. The person in the other thread you linked to is having the opposite problem. The video card's gamma is remaining low in Leopard compared to Tiger, resulting in a flat display. Here's a little bit from X-Rite's site about why a correct LUT is important. I made one notable part bold.

In order to calibrate and profile your monitor, the software must be able to download correction information to your video card. This modifies a correction Look-Up Table (LUT) in the video card every time your system is started or your profile is loaded. The video card, driver and operating system must allow this to be done or monitor profiling will not work.

So it possibly comes back to something we pointed to before. A bad video driver. Let's check a few things. We both have retail copies of Tiger, but I wonder if they're different versions. Click on the Apple in the upper left and choose "About This Mac". Under the big title, "Mac OS X", click on the line that most likely shows your version number (like 10.4.10). It rotates between that and two other choices when you click on it. The serial number of your Mac and the build number of the OS. What is your build number? Mine's 8R218.

Next, go to the /System/Library/Extensions/ folder of the Tiger install. Press Command+2 to get List View (it's easier to find stuff alphabetically this way). What is the date and size of these two files:

ATIRage128.kext
ATIRagePro.kext

You'll have to highlight them and press Command+I (Get Info) to get a file size. On my Tiger install, they both have a creation date of March 26, 2005, 4:29 PM. Size of the 128 driver is 344 KB. Pro is 244 KB. Are yours the same?

Now for the possibly interesting part. Get the same info on those two drivers in the Panther System folder. Are they different?