Blu-ray support

Is uttering the word Blu-ray punishible by excommunication or death here? Why does DVDSP4 have support for HD-DVD but not Blu-ray? Did Apple sign an exclusive contract with HD-DVD like some studios did? Many of those contracts expire in August and a host of studios have announced that they're migrating to Blu-ray at that point: some are outright abandoning the HD-DVD format. This does not bode well at all for the HD-DVD format. The Blu-ray format is technically superior, anyway, so it's just as well.

Still the question begs, why doesn't Apple develop an upgrade or plug-in with Blu-ray support for DVDSP4? Apple sits on the Blu-ray board but doesn't support the format - how weird is that? they tell you they support it with press releases but nothing that translates into action.

Mac Pro, Mac OS X (10.4.11)

Posted on Feb 14, 2008 2:34 PM

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62 replies

Feb 15, 2008 5:52 PM in response to Eric Pautsch1

As you can plainly see, there are a lot of developers who are not pleased with the absence of support for BD in DVDSP. This is the format that will obviously dominate the consumer and business market for high def disks. Business and consumer clients are constantly asking for this format. Despite the capricious whims of "His Royal Highness" BD will be the preferred format and the user base will continue to expand and be serviced by the competition.

Apple is going to look increasingly foolish for having adapted an obsolete format over a popular one. "His Royal Highness" does not determine the market.

Feb 15, 2008 6:11 PM in response to hbrod

hbrod wrote:


Apple is going to look increasingly foolish for having adapted an obsolete format over a popular one. "His Royal Highness" does not determine the market.



And IMO blu-ray is already obsolete. The battle was too long and this is not jumping from VHS to DVD. It is incremental, at best, for the vast majority of real life consumers who really do not have DVD under their belt and who cannot tell 4:3 from 16:9. If you think that Apple is not paying attention or knows what is going on in the market, you should reconsider that position. Remember HD DVD is Microsoft not Apple.

Feb 15, 2008 6:35 PM in response to Drew13

" Apple is going to look increasingly foolish for having adapted an obsolete format over a popular one. "His Royal Highness" does not determine the market. "



Yeah.. but the direction of the market was only determined in the past 3 weeks. Apple has you by the balls. Are you going to drop using Final Cut Studio because DVDSP doesn't offer BD? Of course not! This is new, developing technology with tons of licensing fees and Apple wants you to download your content not burn it to disc.

I still say there will no BD in DVDSP....ever.

Message was edited by: Eric Pautsch1

Feb 15, 2008 7:38 PM in response to Eric Pautsch1

Eric.

I respect your opinion but must disagree. Yes, Apple wants you to download your HD content and place it in your nice little Apple TV box. However, companies like Blockbuster and Bestbuy certainly don't want this! I really don't think Hollywood does either. They would LOVE nothing more than to have consumers replace all their SD DVDs with Blu-ray movies, just like we did with our VHS movies when DVD came out! Can you see the elderly buying up Apple TV boxes and downloading movie content? Most of our customers have never even heard of this device when we show them ours. It's been our HD display device for almost 6 months now. Now that we can produce one-off Blu-ray discs, the PS3 is going to replace it.

Sure, it's nice to have an alternative as a consumer to download, rather than rent, but what about the person who wants to buy? What about the disc collector? I've been around for a while and in the VHS days, I had about 6-10 movies in my "collection" My DVD collection is somewhere around 400 movies! You can't argue with success like this. You can't agrue how successful DVD itself has been over the years. People simply want to TAKE HOME a tangeable item, like a disc. Now that HD televisions are common place, as is HD satellite and HD cable boxes, consumers will start demanding (they already are) HD disc based content. Yes, the format war has been a pain in the $#@, for all of us who are content providers, but with competing companies like Adobe and Sonic, why WOULDN'T Apple provide an HD solution in it's disc based authroing program? If I'm not mistaken, HD DVD has been a part of DVDSP for a while now. If Apple really didn't want HD in its DVDSP program, WHY would HD-DVD be in there at all? You can argue it came out a long time ago. All of us were excited to see it. When NO burners came to market though, it got messy.

S.J. is IMO a brilliant man. I simply can't believe he thinks that downloading movies in HD to Apple TV is the only way it should be done.

As a professional in the video production industry, we shoot and edit HD all the time. Our customers are asking to take that to their businesses or homes. Am I to suggest they all buy an Apple TV and we encode their program onto it?

BD-R is just fine for one offs right now. I'm certain the rules for replication will adjust as the format takes off in popularity and content providers demand changes. If they don't, then perhaps Blu-ray will die.

Without BD in DVDSP right now, you do have the upper hand in your assumptions, but like it's been said, these recent developments are NEW. Apple has had their developers busy in other areas. Now that Leopard is out, the iPhone is in it's second generation, and even Aperture is out in round 2, I'm sure S.J. has a number of developers working to upgrade DVDSP to 5.0 with Blu-ray support. If Apple's competitors have it out now (and we're using it) WHY oh WHY would Apple not?

Peace to all...

Feb 15, 2008 8:59 PM in response to Darren S

We don't disagree on that many issues Darren. It's hard for me to imagine a world where we download our content. This is so far into the future its hard to talk about. Where we do disagree is that the studios would love this form of distribution to take hold. Cut out the packaging and distribution fees and they're making about the same amount off each download. Could you imagine the money that would be made if the new Indiana Jones film were released on Itunes the same day as the theater? I just don't think we have the infrastructure to support that kind of traffic. On top of that...around half Americans don't have internet..so you'd be alienating them. Besides who wants to see 720p in Apple's H.264 codec when one can get a full 1080p off a disc. Physical media is tangible and has better quality and will be this way for many years. Remember though were talking about our generation... the next gen will find this kind of stuff common place and thats what Steve Jobs is shooting for.

The reason DVDSP included HD DVD is simple. DVDSP authors standard content HD DVDs- it's almost exactly like the DVD-Video spec. Very simple to fold in. BD is a completely different technology and folding BD into DVDSP would require a completely new tool. It would almost surely be "DVD Studio Blu" or something like that.

I just think with the time and effort and money it would take to add BD...it won't add any sales numbers to Final Cut Studio. So why would they spend the effort if its not going to increase sales...know what I mean?

Enjoy this thread while it lasts 🙂

Message was edited by: Eric Pautsch1

Feb 16, 2008 7:25 AM in response to Eric Pautsch1

True! Of course the retailers would also have a say. Imagine telling Bestbuy that Blu-ray or DVD was going to be abandoned for downloading?

I don't know much about the "behind the scenes" of Blu-ray but if Adobe can add it to Encore, I would HOPE that Apple would add it to DVDSP.

I understand about your "sales" angle, but if enough users knew that Apple was NEVER going to add Blu-ray support, perhaps FCP "would" suffer. We bought Encore CS3 that comes with Adobe Premiere Pro. Although we have only installed Encore and do not have a desire to abandon FCP, I imagine others would!

As content providers, the typical end result is some sort of media, unless of course you're creating for the web. With everything moving to HD, Apple, IMHO, MUST allow it's users to deliver HD content for the average consumer.

We produce content for consumers and companies. Now that we're doing so much HD, they're all looking for some way to play it in their; living rooms, board-rooms, etc.

I can't argue with your logic. I only hope that Apple surprises us all. I'm sure Adobe and Sonic would love nothing more than to hear Apple won't be a competitor. As history has proven though, this is not the case.

If it's any indication to Apple HOW MUCH it's users want Blu-ray, just take a look at the amount of reads ANY Blu-ray topic gets.

I'm actually quite shocked that Apple hasn't deleted all of the Blu-ray threads lately. Perhaps that department is on holiday? 😉

Peace.

Feb 16, 2008 3:43 PM in response to Darren S

This discussion is important and most definitely "on-topic." I have used FCP/Studio for years, and have used the HD format (720p) for shooting and editing since November of 2005, before it was easy to use my camera (a JVC HD100) that way. I was content to make SD DVDs when that was the only option, and to play HD from tape when I could, but now that BluRay is a reality both for playing and burning, I am not content to make SD DVDs any more -- coming from the film world, I never liked 480i at all! So I really wonder: what is Apple doing by NOT supporting a format whose governing board they sit on? What is wrong with this picture? I (mostly) like their products, but if they don't support BluRay soon, it's only a matter of time before I (and no doubt many others) jump ship to an environment that does. I mean, editing in HD has been great, but what, ultimately, is the point if I can't get things out in HD? If I can't send my brother or friends or festivals HD copies of my work, which I can't afford to do on tapes that virtually noone can play?

Feb 17, 2008 2:59 PM in response to hbrod

SAN FRANCISCO — HD DVD, the beloved format of Toshiba and three Hollywood studios, died Friday after a brief illness. The cause of death was determined to be the decision by Wal-Mart to stock only high-definition DVDs and players using the Blu-ray format.

The format war confounded and frustrated consumers in Tokyo, above, and elsewhere.

There are no funeral plans, but retailers and industry analysts are already writing the obituary for HD DVD.

The announcement by Wal-Mart Stores, the nation’s largest retailer of DVDs, that it would stop selling the discs and machines in June when supplies are depleted comes after decisions this week by Best Buy, the largest electronics retailer, to promote Blu-ray as its preferred format and Netflix, the DVD-rental service, to stock only Blu-ray movies, phasing out HD DVD by the end of this year.

Last year, Target, one of the top sellers of electronics, discontinued selling HD DVD players in its stores, but continued to sell them online.

“The fat lady has sung,” said Rob Enderle, a technology industry analyst in Silicon Valley. “Wal-Mart is the biggest player in the DVD market. If it says HD DVD is done, you can take that as a fact.”

Toshiba executives did not return calls asking for comment. Analysts do not expect the company to take the product off the market but the format war is over. Toshiba had been fighting for more than two years to establish the dominance of the format it developed over Blu-ray, developed by Sony.

The combined weight of the decisions this week, but particularly the heft of Wal-Mart, signals the end of a format war that has confounded and frustrated consumers and that had grown increasingly costly for the consumer electronics industry — from hardware makers and studios to retailers.

Andy Parsons, a spokesman for the Blu-ray Disc Association, an industry trade group, said retailers and movie studios had incentives to resolve the issue quickly because it was costly for them to devote shelf space and technology to two formats. Besides, he noted, many consumers have sat on the sidelines and not purchased either version because they did not want to invest in a technology that could become obsolete.

Thus far, consumers have purchased about one million Blu-ray players, though there are another three million in the market that are integrated into the PlayStation 3 consoles of Sony, said Richard Doherty, research director of Envisioneering, a technology assessment firm. About one million HD DVD players have been sold.

Evenly matched by Blu-ray through 2007, HD DVD experienced a marked reversal in fortune in early January when Warner Brothers studio, a unit of Time Warner, announced it would manufacture and distribute movies only in Blu-ray. With the Warner decision, the Blu-ray coalition controlled around 75 percent of the high-definition content from the major movie and TV studios. The coalition includes Sharp, Panasonic and Philips as well as Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox studios.

Universal, Paramount and the DreamWorks Animation studios still back HD DVD; none of those studios responded to requests for comment Friday.

“It’s pretty clear that retailers consumers trust the most have concluded that the format war is all but over,” Mr. Parsons said. “Toshiba fought a very good battle, but the industry is ready to move on and go with a single format.”

Because movie and entertainment technology has become integrated into a range of consumer electronics, the high-definition movie format war has created unusually wide-ranging alliances. The battle included, for example, video game companies; Microsoft has backed the HD DVD standard and sold a compatible player to accompany its Xbox 360 video game console.

Sony has pushed vigorously for the Blu-ray standard, not just because it is a patent holder of the technology, but also because it has integrated the standard into PlayStation 3. Sony has argued that consumers will gravitate to the PlayStation 3 because of the high-definition movie player.

Any celebration over the victory may be tempered by concerns that the DVD — of any format — may be doomed by electronic delivery of movies over the Internet. The longer HD DVD battled Blu-ray, the more the consumer market has had an opportunity to gravitate to downloading movies. Such a move, coupled with the growth of technology that makes such downloading easier and cheaper, has threatened to cut into the long-term sales of physical movies in the DVD format.

Mr. Doherty, like Mr. Parsons, argued that digital downloads are not yet affecting the DVD market and that they would not for some time. They said that movie downloads face a host of challenges, chief among them that many consumers have insufficient bandwidth to download movies or move them from device to device on a wireless home network.

Mr. Enderle, however, argued that bandwidth was improving and that major telecommunications carriers, which are pushing to increase speeds, would like to be able to make their pipes the delivery mechanism for high-definition movies. Wal-Mart, Warner Brothers, Best Buy and all the others lining up behind Blu-ray realized they had to kill HD DVD — and fast, he said.

“The later it gets, the much worse it gets,” he said.

By contrast, Mr. Parsons said that downloading movies “is not a viable option now or even in the near future.”

“It’s something that will move very gradually in that direction.”

Feb 18, 2008 11:43 AM in response to Eric Pautsch1

Eric Pautsch1 wrote:
Although many may argue....HD DVD was alive and well just 3 weeks ago


There goes credibility out the window! (Nothing personal Eric.)

Eric Pautsch1 wrote:
On top of all that, DVDSP would have to be redone almost from scratch to fold in BD authoring. Furthermore you won't see a BD tool from Apple allowing you to author for replication...way to many big boys charging top dollar for work right now and they're not about to let DVDSP ruin the fun..like it did for spec. level authors.


Why would DVDSP have to be done almost from scratch? The only answer I've come up with for the big delay is that making BD java user friendly in DVDSP might be a big hurdle for Apple to overcome. Hardly a reason to make an app from scratch.

The big boys that are charging for replication aren't in a business relationship with apple that would give apple an incentive to withhold these tools. In fact, the tools these "big boys" you speak of are using are made by apple's competitors.

Feb 18, 2008 1:54 PM in response to maxpower0

maxpower001 wrote:
Eric Pautsch1 wrote:
Although many may argue....HD DVD was alive and well just 3 weeks ago


There goes credibility out the window! (Nothing personal Eric.)

Eric Pautsch1 wrote:
On top of all that, DVDSP would have to be redone almost from scratch to fold in BD authoring. Furthermore you won't see a BD tool from Apple allowing you to author for replication...way to many big boys charging top dollar for work right now and they're not about to let DVDSP ruin the fun..like it did for spec. level authors.


Why would DVDSP have to be done almost from scratch? The only answer I've come up with for the big delay is that making BD java user friendly in DVDSP might be a big hurdle for Apple to overcome. Hardly a reason to make an app from scratch.

The big boys that are charging for replication aren't in a business relationship with apple that would give apple an incentive to withhold these tools. In fact, the tools these "big boys" you speak of are using are made by apple's competitors.



Hey...all I know is that I watched close to 60K in potential HD DVD work go down the drain this last month after Warner's decision. So in 1 month, we saw people ready to go with HD DVD projects to Sonic not selling the only HD DVD authoring tool to Toshiba closing the doors on production..this has to be a first in any business. Many folks lost mucho dinero and many long hours development time in the last month.

Blu Ray isn't DVD-Video. You answered your own question...it is a big hurdle to jump as well as an expensive one. I just don't think Apples going to offer a fully functional BD authoring tool and sell it as a part of Final Cut Studio with the same price tag. It would need to be a separate app with a separate price tag - I just don't see it from Apple at this point.

Message was edited by: Eric Pautsch1

Feb 18, 2008 1:59 PM in response to Eric Pautsch1

I can't see Apple offering two DVD authoring apps, let alone selling either of them outside of the Final Cut Studio package. Apple's constant mantra with FCS has been "all you need in a post-prod workflow". They haven't offered a video-related ProApp outside of FCS for years. It might be awhile in coming, but if/when they release blu-ray support, it will be inside FCS.

Feb 18, 2008 3:22 PM in response to Eric Pautsch1

Eric Pautsch1 wrote:
I hope your right Zak. But Apple isn't in the business of making customers happy..they're here for the money. All the money spent on licensing and development has to be made back somewhere.


Hey if they do a full blown blu-ray app and break it out of the Studio and charge what they did for DVD SP 1.0, I would still buy it in a heartbeat and be very happy 🙂

Feb 18, 2008 3:58 PM in response to Eric Pautsch1

True, but the more blu-ray gains popularity, the more people are going to fault Apple for not giving it any support in what they claim to be an "all-inclusive" package. I think the most likely outcome is two versions of FCS: one with a blu-ray capable DVDSP, and one without. That way they can maintain FCS' reputation while not overcharging SD producers for something they don't need.

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