internal soundcard enough?

Hi Patrick,

If i understand correctly, if you're planning to run AU instruments then there won't be a whole lot of sound recording to do, rather maybe bouncing to files. For that the internal sound card can of course do the job, although most external Firewire solutions are probably performing better. Most of M-Audio's products (including the 410 that I have) should be good enough to plug the RD-300SX both audio (just outputs stereo, right) and Midi as well as the mic.

Hi,

I use the internal audio; it seems absolutely fine.

I suspect people are affected by two things when considering this point:

1) If you pay for something then it must be better, right?

2) External soundcards probably do offer a *very marginally* better sound. Certainly at the expensive top end. (Statistics, anyone??)

It all depends on what you want to do - I have the mixer hooked up to allow Logic to record desk channels, and run external synths or mics into that. If you want to do multiple track records simultaneously then I guess you need something to fulfil that role (though this can be achieved running things through a desk - just you'd have to have the mix right first.... etc)

Overall though, the internal soundcard is more than adequate IMHO. Depends on what you're doing. Certainly for running AU instruments.

Best,

Mickey.

I had a lot of problems with M-Audio card.
I tried internal, and was very surprised. It supports 24bit, 48khz. As I don't record any live instruments, the internal card is perfect!!!!

If you are bouncing down internally, you will get the highest possible fidelity (which for some purists isn't always desirable). if you are simply monitoring your sound then i would have thought that the internal sound card would be more than adequate (provided you don't have system noise in there as well), in fact i'll go so far as to say it will be adequate.

if you are recording live audio, and bearing in mind that the new cards record 48k 24bit, i suspect that they are also more than adequate and you might have to spend a fair bit to improve on them - i'm not so sure on that point. but G5's have digital in's, so you could probably save a fair bit of money by just getting an AD/DA converter and recording via the digi in's thus bypassing the cards converters.

but as you say you will be mostly using the plug-ins so if you bounce down the sound card doesn't even come into the equation, since you're not passing anything through it.

just in case it's not clear - a PCI or firewire soundcard (as in, audio i/o) has no effect at all on the computer's ability to run audio tracks, AU plug ins and audio instruments. it doesn't in any way add any power to the performance of the machine, all you get is higher quality input and output of your sound, and possibly more physical channels depending on the interface. that's it.

2) External soundcards probably do offer a *very marginally* better sound.

this is not really true.. pretty much any PCI or firewire audio interface sold for music production purposes will give you better sound than the analog output built in to the mac. this ranges from significantly better to off-the-scale better, depending on what you buy.
the first big problem with the mac's analog out is that it's not very well shielded, so you can often hear digital interference from the hard drives and things like moving the mouse. if you are monitoring in poor quality speakers (like any domestic speakers or USB home entertainment speakers) and in an environment with lots of ambient sound, you won't notice it as much. but in a proper acoustic space with proper monitoring, like a studio, this noise will be clear as day. secondly, the lack of definition and very average stereo spread, poor bass response and brittle top end of the mac's built in audio will be quite obvious too. same goes for recording using the built in input. it's fine for basic recording - far better than things used to be at this level - but not in the same league as any dedicated hardware.

the only exception is the spdif i/o on the G5. if you only ever want high quality monitoring and will only ever record one mono or one stereo source at a time, then all you need is a good quality D/A converter to connect to the spdif. in that case, you'll have as good quality sound as the converter allows. you can even spend big bucks and get an apogee or DAD or other high end D/A and you'll have the best quality sound money can buy, without ever having to bother with drivers, driver updates, compatibility, PCI or firewire bandwidth issues etc etc..

PS. my delta 1010 sounds great, and they're not that expensive anymore

I had some problems with the M-Audio 410 a long long time ago with the first versions of the drivers. Now for over a year or even more, the interface has been rather stable and I have no complaints whatsoever to report...

This years hottest Firewire Audio Interface in the smaller size is definately the FireBox from Presonus. It's got everything you need in a small little nice box; two preamps, several inputs, midi, spdif etc. And output for headphones.

In the latest issue of SoundOnSound they did a review of it and all good there!

Check it out at presonus.com

"this ranges from significantly better to off-the-scale better, depending on what you buy." tbirdparis

Any statistics to back this up? Are you saying that the "average ear" can tell the difference? Without expensive monitors, in a studio environment? In a club? On the TV? On the radio? In a car?

I figure you're probably kind of right, and it can even probably be statistically proven, but at the same time, he did ask if the internal soundcard is good enough for now...

Best,

Mickey.

don't need any statistics to back this up, just listen to it. like I said, the worst problem with the built in sound (apart from the digital i/o which is fantastic) is the very obvious interference you can clearly hear from the workings of the machine bleeding into the audio signal. apart from that, the converters are not great, which is also pretty easy to hear - poor stereo spread, brittle tops with lack of definition and murky bottom end. all you need to do is A/B it some time and you'll hear the difference, even in average speakers. try listening to the spdif output through any D/A converter built for audio work and compare it to the analog output. world of difference.

this isn't to say _at all_ that you can't work with the built in analog sound - you totally can, it just depends on what you are working on at the time. for writing/composing/developing your music it's more than fine. when you are working on your music, your focus is on the writing, arranging and development. plus, as someone else correctly stated in this thread, internal synths and bouncing are totally unaffected by the quality of the output you are hearing because it is all internal. so for this part of the process, it's workable and fine.

what is very affected though, is your ability to hear accurately what you are working on in terms of the precise tonal characteristics of your sounds. like I said, for writing, it doesn't really matter because you are engaging with your material on a different level at that stage. but when it comes to mixing and mastering, it becomes very important. if you aren't hearing the tonal qualities of your sounds properly when mixing, you will make all kinds of mistakes and overcompensations that will make it harder to get a good mix. it's the same argument that explains why studios use the best quality, faithful sounding equipment at every stage of the signal chain when it comes to monitoring. people often make the mistake of downplaying the importance of this because things will end up being played in ordinary systems, like a car or club or on radio. but it's all the more important for that - when mixing, you need to be hearing what is really going on in terms of dynamics, EQ, pan etc.. so that your treatment is creatively applied to get the sound you want, and so that you aren't inadvertently adding buckets of EQ to sounds in the wrong way because your monitoring is not letting you hear what is really going on. for example, if you've not been able to accurately here and process your kick drums and bass sounds because your monitoring is just all wool and mud down low, the problems will show up even more out in the real world of TV speakers, clubs and car stereos..

as you said, when someone asks if the internal card is good enough "for now" the real question is, what are you trying to use it for? if you are just writing/composing/getting your music together, then yes it probably is. but if you are wanting to record external sources with any decent amount of confidence that what you capture is going to be usable and clean, then it may not be. and if you are intending to get stuck into mixing your stuff to a completed product stage, then you need to take monitoring seriously, a big part of that is the quality of the i/o from your DAW.

excellent post tbirdparis.

the advantage of using A/D converters is that you won't have to update drivers you just go into the sound card and use the built-in audio controller for core audio. like tbird said, apogee are just about top of the range, but you might want something like the behringer ULTRAMATCH PRO SRC2496, or something with good mic pre's on board. save you even needing a mixer.

This is a really great and informative thread! I've been looking to replace my Digi 002R and have been scouring the forum for a few weeks trying to make an informed decision. A lot of the problems people seem to be having with their different interfaces seem to be caused by drivers, and it had never occurred to me to use a converter on the SPDIF of the G5.

tbirdparis said: "if you only ever want high quality monitoring and will only ever record one mono or one stereo source at a time, then all you need is a good quality D/A converter to connect to the spdif."

That would generally be how I work, alone in the studio. However, I wondered if adding an external mixer to the line-up would allow for more flexibility, if desired, and/or if using a separate mic pre would help with fidelity as it does with firewire interfaces (I'd imagine it would, but wanted to be sure, having never even looked at the SPDIF port). And finally, I'm assuming it would still be possible to get audio in from my cassette deck and turntable with a set-up like this as I do a lot of converting for myself and clients?

Thanks for letting me jump into this thread. I appreciate hearing more about using the SPDIF for recording audio....